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	<title>Comments on: David Cameron&#8217;s speech: Reaction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/david-camerons-speech-reaction/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/david-camerons-speech-reaction/</link>
	<description>Left Foot Forward is a political blog for progressives. We provide evidence-based analysis on British politics, news and policy developments.</description>
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		<title>By: Roger</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/david-camerons-speech-reaction/comment-page-1/#comment-718</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=2039#comment-718</guid>
		<description>On Cameron and PR 

He would and has argued that his &#039;New Politics&#039; can only triumph with a strong Conservative majority and would be held back by coalition politics

This is pretty much a mirror image of what we on the Labour left almost all used to argue up until the penny dropped and we realised just how few voters really supported us. 

And talk about glass houses and throwing stones - it was Tony Blair who reneged on a clear commitment to introduce PR in his first parliament, and Gordon who has just taken it off the agenda for what may well be another generation by ruling out a referendum on election day.  
 
Again the Tories may be wrong but that doesn&#039;t mean they are inconsistent on this issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On Cameron and PR </p>
<p>He would and has argued that his &#8216;New Politics&#8217; can only triumph with a strong Conservative majority and would be held back by coalition politics</p>
<p>This is pretty much a mirror image of what we on the Labour left almost all used to argue up until the penny dropped and we realised just how few voters really supported us. </p>
<p>And talk about glass houses and throwing stones &#8211; it was Tony Blair who reneged on a clear commitment to introduce PR in his first parliament, and Gordon who has just taken it off the agenda for what may well be another generation by ruling out a referendum on election day.  </p>
<p>Again the Tories may be wrong but that doesn&#8217;t mean they are inconsistent on this issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/david-camerons-speech-reaction/comment-page-1/#comment-716</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:01:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=2039#comment-716</guid>
		<description>A second qualified defence of Cameron is that HE does not misunderstand Keynesian economics - he simply does not accept them. 

You and I and Paul Krugman may call ourselves Keynesians these days, but the fact is that for three decades academic economic departments have been dominated by various strands of classical, monetarist, Austrian and rational choice theorists - who even if they disagreed on much else all denied that Keynesianism was the only path to macro-economic success. 

Cameron recieved whatever education he got in economics at precisely the point that this new orthodoxy was established and has spent his entire adult life in the more or less exclusive company of people for whom Keynesian is an insult. 

His beliefs may be profoundly wrong but he&#039;s not necessarily dishonest or inconsistent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A second qualified defence of Cameron is that HE does not misunderstand Keynesian economics &#8211; he simply does not accept them. </p>
<p>You and I and Paul Krugman may call ourselves Keynesians these days, but the fact is that for three decades academic economic departments have been dominated by various strands of classical, monetarist, Austrian and rational choice theorists &#8211; who even if they disagreed on much else all denied that Keynesianism was the only path to macro-economic success. </p>
<p>Cameron recieved whatever education he got in economics at precisely the point that this new orthodoxy was established and has spent his entire adult life in the more or less exclusive company of people for whom Keynesian is an insult. </p>
<p>His beliefs may be profoundly wrong but he&#8217;s not necessarily dishonest or inconsistent.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/david-camerons-speech-reaction/comment-page-1/#comment-714</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=2039#comment-714</guid>
		<description>Cameron didn&#039;t say debt as a percentage of GDP has doubled - so your comment is simply wrong.

It took me 3 minutes to google up the national debt figures for the past 5 years:

Net Debt £bn
2003/4  381.5
2004/5  422.1
2005/6  461.6
2006/7  497.9
2007/8  526.9
2008/9  609.5

However this excludes financial sector interventions (which at least at the time the Tories supported), include them in and you get: 

2003/4  381.5 
2004/5  422.1
2005/6  461.6
2006/7  497.9
2007/8  621.2
2008/9  743.7

And if you take the most recent monthly net debt figure for August 2009 you get £804.8bn.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/psf0909.pdf

A rise from £381.5bn at March 31 2004 to £743.7bn at March 31 2009 is indeed as near as dammit double. 

I haven&#039;t got a figure for August 2004 to hand but it would have been c.400bn so I&#039;d guess that between then and August 2009 has almost certainly more than doubled.

So Cameron is technically right.

But why the hell are we quibbling over this at all - the size of the national debt is irrelevant if we get the economy growing again. 
`
Attlee, Churchill, Eden, Macmillan, Douglas-Home and Wilson all handled much higher rates of national debt compared to GDP and delivered three decades of sustained growth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cameron didn&#8217;t say debt as a percentage of GDP has doubled &#8211; so your comment is simply wrong.</p>
<p>It took me 3 minutes to google up the national debt figures for the past 5 years:</p>
<p>Net Debt £bn<br />
2003/4  381.5<br />
2004/5  422.1<br />
2005/6  461.6<br />
2006/7  497.9<br />
2007/8  526.9<br />
2008/9  609.5</p>
<p>However this excludes financial sector interventions (which at least at the time the Tories supported), include them in and you get: </p>
<p>2003/4  381.5<br />
2004/5  422.1<br />
2005/6  461.6<br />
2006/7  497.9<br />
2007/8  621.2<br />
2008/9  743.7</p>
<p>And if you take the most recent monthly net debt figure for August 2009 you get £804.8bn.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/psf0909.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/psf0909.pdf</a></p>
<p>A rise from £381.5bn at March 31 2004 to £743.7bn at March 31 2009 is indeed as near as dammit double. </p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t got a figure for August 2004 to hand but it would have been c.400bn so I&#8217;d guess that between then and August 2009 has almost certainly more than doubled.</p>
<p>So Cameron is technically right.</p>
<p>But why the hell are we quibbling over this at all &#8211; the size of the national debt is irrelevant if we get the economy growing again.<br />
`<br />
Attlee, Churchill, Eden, Macmillan, Douglas-Home and Wilson all handled much higher rates of national debt compared to GDP and delivered three decades of sustained growth.</p>
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		<title>By: willstraw</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/david-camerons-speech-reaction/comment-page-1/#comment-712</link>
		<dc:creator>willstraw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=2039#comment-712</guid>
		<description>Bearded Socialist - thanks for those graphs. I hope they satisfy Tony that while the deficit has doubled, debt has not. Our graph from a few weeks back shows why we are not in a &quot;debt crisis&quot;: http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/09/conservative-research-shows-theres-no-debt-crisis/

Compassionate centrist - I&#039;ll admit that it wasn&#039;t our best rebuttal but we did 29 and so some were bound to be more discursive than others. But the point remains, the &quot;broken Britain&quot; narrative ignores the facts about crime reduction and poverty alleviation by conflating a persistent 30-year problem into something apparently created in the last decade.

Fayeez - Obama certainly wasnt the first person to invoke a &quot;steep climb&quot; but it was definitely the most memorable in recent history. My guess is that Cameron was quite self-consciously copying Obama in what you might call an attempt to sub-consciously associate himself with a popular figure.

Judy - very good question and one worth looking into. We&#039;ll get onto it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bearded Socialist &#8211; thanks for those graphs. I hope they satisfy Tony that while the deficit has doubled, debt has not. Our graph from a few weeks back shows why we are not in a &#8220;debt crisis&#8221;: <a href="http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/09/conservative-research-shows-theres-no-debt-crisis/" rel="nofollow">http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/09/conservative-research-shows-theres-no-debt-crisis/</a></p>
<p>Compassionate centrist &#8211; I&#8217;ll admit that it wasn&#8217;t our best rebuttal but we did 29 and so some were bound to be more discursive than others. But the point remains, the &#8220;broken Britain&#8221; narrative ignores the facts about crime reduction and poverty alleviation by conflating a persistent 30-year problem into something apparently created in the last decade.</p>
<p>Fayeez &#8211; Obama certainly wasnt the first person to invoke a &#8220;steep climb&#8221; but it was definitely the most memorable in recent history. My guess is that Cameron was quite self-consciously copying Obama in what you might call an attempt to sub-consciously associate himself with a popular figure.</p>
<p>Judy &#8211; very good question and one worth looking into. We&#8217;ll get onto it.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Lewis</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/david-camerons-speech-reaction/comment-page-1/#comment-9344</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=2039#comment-9344</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;RT @Jessica_Asato: Excellent line by line analysis by @leftfootfwd of Cameron&#039;s speech http://is.gd/46qOk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">RT @Jessica_Asato: Excellent line by line analysis by @leftfootfwd of Cameron&#39;s speech <a href="http://is.gd/46qOk" rel="nofollow">http://is.gd/46qOk</a></span></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: Jessica Asato</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/david-camerons-speech-reaction/comment-page-1/#comment-9345</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica Asato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=2039#comment-9345</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;Excellent line by line analysis by @leftfootfwd of Cameron&#039;s speech http://is.gd/46qOk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Excellent line by line analysis by @leftfootfwd of Cameron&#39;s speech <a href="http://is.gd/46qOk" rel="nofollow">http://is.gd/46qOk</a></span></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: Judy Dickinson</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/david-camerons-speech-reaction/comment-page-1/#comment-710</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy Dickinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=2039#comment-710</guid>
		<description>How much of the extra govt debt as % of GDP comes from the money given to prop up the banking system?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How much of the extra govt debt as % of GDP comes from the money given to prop up the banking system?</p>
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		<title>By: Toby Perkins</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/david-camerons-speech-reaction/comment-page-1/#comment-709</link>
		<dc:creator>Toby Perkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=2039#comment-709</guid>
		<description>He&#039;s certainly running scared of making any further actual policy commitments. Interesting that the minute that Boy George actually committed the Tories to any policies their poll lead plummets.

The line about every school being as good as Eton is just so insultingly coy and meaningless, it&#039;s a miracle that an intelligent man actually allowed the words to pass from his lips.

And Tories, champion of the poor... laughable.

Opposed Minimum wage, oppose tax credits, oppose the job creation programmes and re-skilling programmes that were a part of Labour&#039;s spending our way out of recession, it takes more than just warm words.

All in all, an amazingly uninspiring speech from someone who can at least do presentation well normally, makes you wonder if it&#039;s all getting a little bit real for him.

GAME ON!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He&#8217;s certainly running scared of making any further actual policy commitments. Interesting that the minute that Boy George actually committed the Tories to any policies their poll lead plummets.</p>
<p>The line about every school being as good as Eton is just so insultingly coy and meaningless, it&#8217;s a miracle that an intelligent man actually allowed the words to pass from his lips.</p>
<p>And Tories, champion of the poor&#8230; laughable.</p>
<p>Opposed Minimum wage, oppose tax credits, oppose the job creation programmes and re-skilling programmes that were a part of Labour&#8217;s spending our way out of recession, it takes more than just warm words.</p>
<p>All in all, an amazingly uninspiring speech from someone who can at least do presentation well normally, makes you wonder if it&#8217;s all getting a little bit real for him.</p>
<p>GAME ON!!</p>
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		<title>By: Fayyaz Muneer</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/david-camerons-speech-reaction/comment-page-1/#comment-702</link>
		<dc:creator>Fayyaz Muneer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 22:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=2039#comment-702</guid>
		<description>Yeah, because Obama was definitely the first person ever to invoke mountaineering as a metaphor for political struggle, and everybody else who invokes the metaphor is obviously a copycat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, because Obama was definitely the first person ever to invoke mountaineering as a metaphor for political struggle, and everybody else who invokes the metaphor is obviously a copycat.</p>
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		<title>By: Compassionate Centrist</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/david-camerons-speech-reaction/comment-page-1/#comment-701</link>
		<dc:creator>Compassionate Centrist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 22:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=2039#comment-701</guid>
		<description>&quot;“Why is our society broken? Because government got too big, did too much and undermined responsibility.”

But society’s problems go back way before the Labour Government.&quot;

What an absolute kop-out of a rebuttal, that&#039;s akin to saying &quot;you started it, not us&quot;. If you truly want to solve issues you have to recognise they exist, which Cameron did here, and outlined a way to tackle them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;“Why is our society broken? Because government got too big, did too much and undermined responsibility.”</p>
<p>But society’s problems go back way before the Labour Government.&#8221;</p>
<p>What an absolute kop-out of a rebuttal, that&#8217;s akin to saying &#8220;you started it, not us&#8221;. If you truly want to solve issues you have to recognise they exist, which Cameron did here, and outlined a way to tackle them.</p>
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