Comments on: Will Iain Dale acknowledge his climate error? http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/12/will-iain-dale-acknowledge-his-climate-error/ Left Foot Forward is a political blog for progressives. We provide evidence-based analysis on British politics, news and policy developments. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 22:58:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: A reply to Iain Dale | Left Foot Forward http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/12/will-iain-dale-acknowledge-his-climate-error/comment-page-1/#comment-3864 A reply to Iain Dale | Left Foot Forward Thu, 07 Jan 2010 21:21:47 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=5675#comment-3864 [...] much for “Game, set, match”, I wonder if Iain Dale will even acknowledge his error. Share | Permalink | Leave a comment Click here to cancel [...] [...] much for “Game, set, match”, I wonder if Iain Dale will even acknowledge his error. Share | Permalink | Leave a comment Click here to cancel [...]

]]> By: John77 http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/12/will-iain-dale-acknowledge-his-climate-error/comment-page-1/#comment-3525 John77 Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:00:31 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=5675#comment-3525 Been grown up enough to admit it? Not that I have noticed. Iain Dale refers today on his blog to a post by Graeme Archer who has a PhD in statistics; you are presumably referring to a different post "the methodology has absolutely no statistical basis whatsoever" You are talking complete bullshit: the sample was taken every tenth year of maximum and minimum temperatures in June and December. In my view that is a sound statistical basis - what are your statistical qualifications? It is possible to select a subset of data that may appear to be randomly selected but will be misleading: however there is neither evidence nor suggestion that this set has been selected for this purpose What we have here is a dataset that appears to contradict the global warming theory: instead of finding some evidence to support the theory [at this point I should add that I want us to cut down on activities that will add to global warming] you simply slag him off without any data or logic. Mr Wilkes attacks Ian Dale for something neither he nor his correspondent has said. Victor actually says in the post: "Of course, I am perfectly prepared to concede that Oxford is not necessarily typical of all world spots. Neither is any other place." If you really care about "climate change" aka the damage that humanity does to the future environment by heating up the planet, please can you do this honestly. It should be obvious that burning vast amounts of fossil fuel will increase the temperature and it should be equally obvious to any decent statistician that variations in solar radiation are more significant than variations in human consumption of fossil fuels: I should hope that you recognise that we can only influence one of these two so, even if it is much smaller than the other, it is the one that we should tackle Malicious lies do not help, they merely reinforce prejudices on both sides and delay persuading the ignorant that we need to take action. Do you care or do you merely want to score party political points (invalid ones in this example)? Been grown up enough to admit it? Not that I have noticed.
Iain Dale refers today on his blog to a post by Graeme Archer who has a PhD in statistics; you are presumably referring to a different post
“the methodology has absolutely no statistical basis whatsoever” You are talking complete bullshit: the sample was taken every tenth year of maximum and minimum temperatures in June and December. In my view that is a sound statistical basis – what are your statistical qualifications?
It is possible to select a subset of data that may appear to be randomly selected but will be misleading: however there is neither evidence nor suggestion that this set has been selected for this purpose
What we have here is a dataset that appears to contradict the global warming theory: instead of finding some evidence to support the theory [at this point I should add that I want us to cut down on activities that will add to global warming] you simply slag him off without any data or logic. Mr Wilkes attacks Ian Dale for something neither he nor his correspondent has said. Victor actually says in the post: “Of course, I am perfectly prepared to concede that Oxford is not necessarily typical of all world spots. Neither is any other place.”
If you really care about “climate change” aka the damage that humanity does to the future environment by heating up the planet, please can you do this honestly. It should be obvious that burning vast amounts of fossil fuel will increase the temperature and it should be equally obvious to any decent statistician that variations in solar radiation are more significant than variations in human consumption of fossil fuels: I should hope that you recognise that we can only influence one of these two so, even if it is much smaller than the other, it is the one that we should tackle
Malicious lies do not help, they merely reinforce prejudices on both sides and delay persuading the ignorant that we need to take action. Do you care or do you merely want to score party political points (invalid ones in this example)?

]]> By: Richard Blogger http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/12/will-iain-dale-acknowledge-his-climate-error/comment-page-1/#comment-3523 Richard Blogger Wed, 23 Dec 2009 19:34:01 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=5675#comment-3523 Will, Years ago when I was a research scientist (an experimentalist) I remember once when talking to a theoretician pointing out how complicated the theory was at the intermediate part of the work she was doing. I pointed to one term saying "but we all know that that part is zero, can't you just remove it?". She got quite animated at this point and told me straight that however complicated the theory got she had to consider <i>everything</i> that could affect the experiment. The terms that I thought were zero could have been affected further on in the calculation by another factor and so could have provided some contribution to the final result. It was only after the theory was complete that she would start to look through for parts that had no contribution and remove them, but she would still mention why they had been removed in the final paper. <i>Assumptions can only be made at the end.</i> This is how science works: you put together your theory and only at the end do you actually see what the theory says. Too many non-scientists seem to think that theory is made to fit the facts. That is not the way it is. If the theory does not fit the facts then it is wrong, simple as that. Will,

Years ago when I was a research scientist (an experimentalist) I remember once when talking to a theoretician pointing out how complicated the theory was at the intermediate part of the work she was doing. I pointed to one term saying “but we all know that that part is zero, can’t you just remove it?”. She got quite animated at this point and told me straight that however complicated the theory got she had to consider everything that could affect the experiment. The terms that I thought were zero could have been affected further on in the calculation by another factor and so could have provided some contribution to the final result.

It was only after the theory was complete that she would start to look through for parts that had no contribution and remove them, but she would still mention why they had been removed in the final paper. Assumptions can only be made at the end.

This is how science works: you put together your theory and only at the end do you actually see what the theory says. Too many non-scientists seem to think that theory is made to fit the facts. That is not the way it is. If the theory does not fit the facts then it is wrong, simple as that.

]]> By: harry http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/12/will-iain-dale-acknowledge-his-climate-error/comment-page-1/#comment-3476 harry Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:02:05 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=5675#comment-3476 just have to add that liberal conspiracy have munged it aswell by assuming the mean temp over a time period is an average of the mean_max and the mean_min. which it isn't unless you make some heroic assumptions. however if you plot the mean annual temperatures (listed above) then it looks almost exactly the same as the graph constructed by liberal conspiracy between 1900 and 1980. ie no correlation with CO2. however, all this talk is crap because a single station is a meaningless proxy for global temperatures just have to add that liberal conspiracy have munged it aswell by assuming the mean temp over a time period is an average of the mean_max and the mean_min. which it isn’t unless you make some heroic assumptions.

however if you plot the mean annual temperatures (listed above) then it looks almost exactly the same as the graph constructed by liberal conspiracy between 1900 and 1980. ie no correlation with CO2.

however, all this talk is crap because a single station is a meaningless proxy for global temperatures

]]> By: harry http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/12/will-iain-dale-acknowledge-his-climate-error/comment-page-1/#comment-3475 harry Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:53:43 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=5675#comment-3475 here's the data for oxford. mean annual data 1900-1980 from the met dataset released a couple of weeks ago. pity it doesn't go past 1980 but there is no increase in temperature over that time and no correlation with CO2 (although this is not global mean temperature and I don't have any point to make) 1900 10.11666667 1901 9.483333333 1902 9.375 1903 9.825 1904 9.483333333 1905 9.633333333 1906 10.13333333 1907 9.533333333 1908 9.783333333 1909 9.125 1910 9.725 1911 10.76666667 1912 9.966666667 1913 10.4 1914 10.43333333 1915 9.55 1916 9.591666667 1917 8.975 1918 9.9 1919 8.9 1920 9.975 1921 11.1 1922 9.2 1923 9.633333333 1924 9.808333333 1925 9.708333333 1926 10.18333333 1927 9.666666667 1928 10.2 1929 9.541666667 1930 9.958333333 1931 9.466666667 1932 9.808333333 1933 10.325 1934 10.50833333 1935 10.275 1936 9.766666667 1937 10.175 1938 10.74166667 1939 10.19166667 1940 9.591666667 1941 9.558333333 1942 9.533333333 1943 10.64166667 1944 10.14166667 1945 10.81666667 1946 10.01666667 1947 10.13333333 1948 10.59166667 1949 11.20833333 1950 9.933333333 1951 9.841666667 1952 9.7 1953 10.15833333 1954 9.733333333 1955 9.775 1956 9.25 1957 10.59166667 1958 10.01666667 1959 10.94166667 1960 10.28333333 1961 10.6 1962 9.058333333 1963 8.833333333 1964 10.04166667 1965 9.516666667 1966 10.06666667 1967 10.30833333 1968 9.825 1969 9.991666667 1970 10.18333333 1971 10.19166667 1972 9.825 1973 10.19166667 1974 10.1 1975 10.46666667 1976 10.63333333 1977 9.925 1978 9.575 1979 9.225 1980 9.508333333 here’s the data for oxford. mean annual data 1900-1980 from the met dataset released a couple of weeks ago. pity it doesn’t go past 1980 but there is no increase in temperature over that time and no correlation with CO2 (although this is not global mean temperature and I don’t have any point to make)

1900 10.11666667
1901 9.483333333
1902 9.375
1903 9.825
1904 9.483333333
1905 9.633333333
1906 10.13333333
1907 9.533333333
1908 9.783333333
1909 9.125
1910 9.725
1911 10.76666667
1912 9.966666667
1913 10.4
1914 10.43333333
1915 9.55
1916 9.591666667
1917 8.975
1918 9.9
1919 8.9
1920 9.975
1921 11.1
1922 9.2
1923 9.633333333
1924 9.808333333
1925 9.708333333
1926 10.18333333
1927 9.666666667
1928 10.2
1929 9.541666667
1930 9.958333333
1931 9.466666667
1932 9.808333333
1933 10.325
1934 10.50833333
1935 10.275
1936 9.766666667
1937 10.175
1938 10.74166667
1939 10.19166667
1940 9.591666667
1941 9.558333333
1942 9.533333333
1943 10.64166667
1944 10.14166667
1945 10.81666667
1946 10.01666667
1947 10.13333333
1948 10.59166667
1949 11.20833333
1950 9.933333333
1951 9.841666667
1952 9.7
1953 10.15833333
1954 9.733333333
1955 9.775
1956 9.25
1957 10.59166667
1958 10.01666667
1959 10.94166667
1960 10.28333333
1961 10.6
1962 9.058333333
1963 8.833333333
1964 10.04166667
1965 9.516666667
1966 10.06666667
1967 10.30833333
1968 9.825
1969 9.991666667
1970 10.18333333
1971 10.19166667
1972 9.825
1973 10.19166667
1974 10.1
1975 10.46666667
1976 10.63333333
1977 9.925
1978 9.575
1979 9.225
1980 9.508333333

]]> By: Pickled Politics » Hysterical Iain Dale runs away when confronted with ‘facts’ http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/12/will-iain-dale-acknowledge-his-climate-error/comment-page-1/#comment-3464 Pickled Politics » Hysterical Iain Dale runs away when confronted with ‘facts’ Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:31:26 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=5675#comment-3464 [...] Straw posted on Left Foot Forward, asking: Will Iain Dale acknowledge his climate error? – the answer should be obvious: of course not. Dale wouldn’t do [...] [...] Straw posted on Left Foot Forward, asking: Will Iain Dale acknowledge his climate error? – the answer should be obvious: of course not. Dale wouldn’t do [...]

]]> By: willstraw http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/12/will-iain-dale-acknowledge-his-climate-error/comment-page-1/#comment-3453 willstraw Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:45:39 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=5675#comment-3453 Frank - I don't think there is any suggestions that the Met have manipulated the raw data. Indeed, it is the same data set that Victor used to produce his phoney results. Victor - I understand that this debate elicits strong emotions but this is anti-intellectual claptrap. Being a trained statistician or economist means you have been taught that it is not statistically robust to cherry pick points in time ten years apart to draw any conclusions. The whole point about temperature increases is that there is variation. The general trend of global temperatures is upwards (by 0.74C over the last century) but there is huge variation year-by-year, country-by-country, and town-by-town. Your methodology is no better than determining who the best football team in England is by seeing who won the league every 10 years. Going back to the 1950s, you would have Chelsea (1955), Man Utd (1965), Derby (1975), Everton (1985), Blackburn (1995), Chelsea (2005). Extrapolating as you have done I would conclude that Chelsea were the most successful post-war team and wouldn't have a clue about Liverpool's 1970s and 1980s domination or Man Utd's since then. Henry - well said. Frank – I don’t think there is any suggestions that the Met have manipulated the raw data. Indeed, it is the same data set that Victor used to produce his phoney results.

Victor – I understand that this debate elicits strong emotions but this is anti-intellectual claptrap. Being a trained statistician or economist means you have been taught that it is not statistically robust to cherry pick points in time ten years apart to draw any conclusions. The whole point about temperature increases is that there is variation. The general trend of global temperatures is upwards (by 0.74C over the last century) but there is huge variation year-by-year, country-by-country, and town-by-town.

Your methodology is no better than determining who the best football team in England is by seeing who won the league every 10 years. Going back to the 1950s, you would have Chelsea (1955), Man Utd (1965), Derby (1975), Everton (1985), Blackburn (1995), Chelsea (2005). Extrapolating as you have done I would conclude that Chelsea were the most successful post-war team and wouldn’t have a clue about Liverpool’s 1970s and 1980s domination or Man Utd’s since then.

Henry – well said.

]]> By: Henry http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/12/will-iain-dale-acknowledge-his-climate-error/comment-page-1/#comment-3452 Henry Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:18:48 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=5675#comment-3452 Gosh, Victor, perhaps we should just give up trying to find out the objective truth about anything. Gosh, Victor, perhaps we should just give up trying to find out the objective truth about anything.

]]> By: paulstpancras http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/12/will-iain-dale-acknowledge-his-climate-error/comment-page-1/#comment-7615 paulstpancras Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:18:05 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=5675#comment-7615 <span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Will Iain Dale acknowledge his climate error? | Left Foot Forward http://bit.ly/6c4h9l (via @twttimes)</span></span> Will Iain Dale acknowledge his climate error? | Left Foot Forward http://bit.ly/6c4h9l (via @twttimes)

]]> By: Victor Southern http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/12/will-iain-dale-acknowledge-his-climate-error/comment-page-1/#comment-3447 Victor Southern Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:12:23 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=5675#comment-3447 A trained economist? How did Glen Wilkes miss out on the crunch of the world economy? After all that is his field of training. Put 2 economists in a room and they will have 3 different opinions. And trained statisticians - are those the same who produced stats for Labour to show a 22% decrease in crime whilst it was actually an 8% increase? The same who variously prove that child poverty is down and also up? I made no claims at all. On the Dale site I simply reported some facts. At least I assumed they were facts since the Met Office had released them as such. In closing I must inform you that I have seen 5 graphs today purporting to show that my idea was nonsense. Odd that the graphs have no coincidence in pattern whatsoever - the one above being the most extreme expression of subjective manipulation. It resembles a hockey stick. A trained economist? How did Glen Wilkes miss out on the crunch of the world economy? After all that is his field of training. Put 2 economists in a room and they will have 3 different opinions.

And trained statisticians – are those the same who produced stats for Labour to show a 22% decrease in crime whilst it was actually an 8% increase? The same who variously prove that child poverty is down and also up?

I made no claims at all. On the Dale site I simply reported some facts. At least I assumed they were facts since the Met Office had released them as such.

In closing I must inform you that I have seen 5 graphs today purporting to show that my idea was nonsense. Odd that the graphs have no coincidence in pattern whatsoever – the one above being the most extreme expression of subjective manipulation. It resembles a hockey stick.

]]>