Comments on: Questions mount for Tories over The Aschcroft Supremacy http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/03/questions-mount-for-tories-over-the-aschcroft-supremacy/ Left Foot Forward is a political blog for progressives. We provide evidence-based analysis on British politics, news and policy developments. Sun, 12 Feb 2012 03:48:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: John77 http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/03/questions-mount-for-tories-over-the-aschcroft-supremacy/comment-page-1/#comment-10032 John77 Fri, 05 Mar 2010 17:17:45 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=9162#comment-10032 "Union donations are made up of individual members’ donations which come of their salary of which they pay tax." NO THEY DO NOT. Union dues and membership subscriptions to professional bodies are tax-deductible - i.e. they come out of gross salary and tax is only levied on the salary net of the union dues. Look it up on HMRC website or any one of several union websites. Transparency - just ask Peter Watts! Or Lord Levy who had to spend a lot of time talking to Scotland Yard detectives who couldn't prove anything thanks to the murky way he operated. Maybe you should remind Tony Blair, Gordon Brown (the fund that had no name), Michael Martin ... The biggest backer of a political party is not Lord Ashcroft - it is Lord David Sainsbury who has given over £15m to New Labour. I don't have the data to hand but I think Mr Dromey's union has also given a lot more than Lord Ashcroft and lots of us would love to see the faintest glimmer of transparency in that relationship. At least Harold Wilson was open about consulting Trade Union leaders! The way that the unions are run, the trade union leaders have a vast deal of personal influence - so Wilson made Frank Cousins a minister, just as Attlee had made Ernie Bevin (except Ernie was quite good at it and Cousins was damagingly bad) - and there is no evidence that Ashcroft has had any influence on Conservative policy (I have seen a quote on the lines of "nobody knows what my political views are"). Secondly charismatic individuals do have a strategic influence - I wasn't born in 1940 so let's start with MacMillan, who is famous for making 1950s pensioners better off than they had been when working in the 1940s, moving the Conservatives to the left, Wilson, Thatcher, Michael Foot, Tony Blair, all of whom used democracy to advance the cause to which they were committed. (If you want historic examples in democracies: Pericles, Julius Caesar and Augustus, Lincoln, Gladstone, Hitler, Churchill) Sorry - I meant Lord Ashcroft's business/financial interests (no really, I did - there would not have been any point in Ashcroft continuing to finance the Conservatives after 2001 if he wanted a peerage out of it). “Union donations are made up of individual members’ donations which come of their salary of which they pay tax.”
NO THEY DO NOT. Union dues and membership subscriptions to professional bodies are tax-deductible – i.e. they come out of gross salary and tax is only levied on the salary net of the union dues. Look it up on HMRC website or any one of several union websites.
Transparency – just ask Peter Watts! Or Lord Levy who had to spend a lot of time talking to Scotland Yard detectives who couldn’t prove anything thanks to the murky way he operated. Maybe you should remind Tony Blair, Gordon Brown (the fund that had no name), Michael Martin … The biggest backer of a political party is not Lord Ashcroft – it is Lord David Sainsbury who has given over £15m to New Labour. I don’t have the data to hand but I think Mr Dromey’s union has also given a lot more than Lord Ashcroft and lots of us would love to see the faintest glimmer of transparency in that relationship. At least Harold Wilson was open about consulting Trade Union leaders!
The way that the unions are run, the trade union leaders have a vast deal of personal influence – so Wilson made Frank Cousins a minister, just as Attlee had made Ernie Bevin (except Ernie was quite good at it and Cousins was damagingly bad) – and there is no evidence that Ashcroft has had any influence on Conservative policy (I have seen a quote on the lines of “nobody knows what my political views are”).
Secondly charismatic individuals do have a strategic influence – I wasn’t born in 1940 so let’s start with MacMillan, who is famous for making 1950s pensioners better off than they had been when working in the 1940s, moving the Conservatives to the left, Wilson, Thatcher, Michael Foot, Tony Blair, all of whom used democracy to advance the cause to which they were committed. (If you want historic examples in democracies: Pericles, Julius Caesar and Augustus, Lincoln, Gladstone, Hitler, Churchill)
Sorry – I meant Lord Ashcroft’s business/financial interests (no really, I did – there would not have been any point in Ashcroft continuing to finance the Conservatives after 2001 if he wanted a peerage out of it).

]]> By: Liz McShane http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/03/questions-mount-for-tories-over-the-aschcroft-supremacy/comment-page-1/#comment-9922 Liz McShane Thu, 04 Mar 2010 14:09:22 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=9162#comment-9922 John - rich men & women can spend their money the way they like but when it comes to being one of the single biggest backers of a political party then we need complete transparency & honesty - maybe you should remind William Hague of that. Union donations are made up of individual members' donations which come of their salary of which they pay tax. The difference is collectivity as opposed to one single person having a strategic influence and I think this is rather undemocratic and dangerous and that goes for all political parties. With regards to your belief that: "Tories have ever done anything to benefit Lord Ashcroft". I think William Hague lobbied quite hard to get him a peerage. Tyler - Re the UMF, I don't have a problem with this - it seems transparent, useful and forward-thinking: "The Union Modernisation Fund (UMF) was created by the Government to support innovative union projects to adapt to changes in the labour market. By funding a variety of projects, which will be formally evaluated, and by publicising the results more widely among unions, the UMF will help unions to test innovative ways of working and provide a demonstration effect for the whole trade union movement, enabling unions to realise more fully their potential to improve the world of work for workers and employers alike. p.s. you can dispense with the 'My Dear'- touching as it might be - it's just a little superfluous. John – rich men & women can spend their money the way they like but when it comes to being one of the single biggest backers of a political party then we need complete transparency & honesty – maybe you should remind William Hague of that. Union donations are made up of individual members’ donations which come of their salary of which they pay tax.

The difference is collectivity as opposed to one single person having a strategic influence and I think this is rather undemocratic and dangerous and that goes for all political parties.

With regards to your belief that: “Tories have ever done anything to benefit Lord Ashcroft”. I think William Hague lobbied quite hard to get him a peerage.

Tyler – Re the UMF, I don’t have a problem with this – it seems transparent, useful and forward-thinking:

“The Union Modernisation Fund (UMF) was created by the Government to support innovative union projects to adapt to changes in the labour market.

By funding a variety of projects, which will be formally evaluated, and by publicising the results more widely among unions, the UMF will help unions to test innovative ways of working and provide a demonstration effect for the whole trade union movement, enabling unions to realise more fully their potential to improve the world of work for workers and employers alike.

p.s. you can dispense with the ‘My Dear’- touching as it might be – it’s just a little superfluous.

]]> By: John77 http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/03/questions-mount-for-tories-over-the-aschcroft-supremacy/comment-page-1/#comment-9903 John77 Thu, 04 Mar 2010 12:10:13 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=9162#comment-9903 Liz McShane "No moral equivalence" because Ashcroft makes his donations out of after-tax income whereas Trade Union donations are tax-free: perhaps, but I should just say unfair. Do you mean rich men should not spend their money in a way they like but the poor airline pilots should have that right? You are on very thin ice. The largest political donor is Lord David Sainsbury, given a title and a ministerial post by Tony Blair after he had given £3m to New Labour. He has, by now, given over £15m to New Labour. Incidentally, the Labour government has changed planning rules against the advice of the Competition Commission in a way that benefits J Sainsbury plc (his stake in the family firm is still worth over £300m) and there is no evidence that the Tories have ever done anything to benefit Lord Ashcroft. Liz McShane
“No moral equivalence” because Ashcroft makes his donations out of after-tax income whereas Trade Union donations are tax-free: perhaps, but I should just say unfair.
Do you mean rich men should not spend their money in a way they like but the poor airline pilots should have that right? You are on very thin ice.
The largest political donor is Lord David Sainsbury, given a title and a ministerial post by Tony Blair after he had given £3m to New Labour. He has, by now, given over £15m to New Labour. Incidentally, the Labour government has changed planning rules against the advice of the Competition Commission in a way that benefits J Sainsbury plc (his stake in the family firm is still worth over £300m) and there is no evidence that the Tories have ever done anything to benefit Lord Ashcroft.

]]> By: Tyler http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/03/questions-mount-for-tories-over-the-aschcroft-supremacy/comment-page-1/#comment-9820 Tyler Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:51:51 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=9162#comment-9820 Oh, by the way, the TUC and UNTIE won't tell me how much they benefit from the UMF. FOI here we come.... Oh, by the way, the TUC and UNTIE won’t tell me how much they benefit from the UMF. FOI here we come….

]]> By: Tyler http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/03/questions-mount-for-tories-over-the-aschcroft-supremacy/comment-page-1/#comment-9819 Tyler Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:51:18 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=9162#comment-9819 @ Liz McShane So it's OK for Lakshmi Mittal and Sainsbury to be rich, non-dom and donate to Labour, but it's not ok for Ashcroft to donate to the Tories? You might also want to have a look at where the unions get a lot of their money from - the "union modernisation fund". It's essnetially a taxpayer funded slush fund for the unions, to the tune of about £10m a year. I wonder where a lot of that money ends up? Frankly my dear, your hypocrisy does you no favours. @ Liz McShane

So it’s OK for Lakshmi Mittal and Sainsbury to be rich, non-dom and donate to Labour, but it’s not ok for Ashcroft to donate to the Tories?

You might also want to have a look at where the unions get a lot of their money from – the “union modernisation fund”. It’s essnetially a taxpayer funded slush fund for the unions, to the tune of about £10m a year. I wonder where a lot of that money ends up?

Frankly my dear, your hypocrisy does you no favours.

]]> By: Liz McShane http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/03/questions-mount-for-tories-over-the-aschcroft-supremacy/comment-page-1/#comment-9734 Liz McShane Wed, 03 Mar 2010 11:13:51 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=9162#comment-9734 John - you very conveniently forgot to add that Lord Cashcoft is one (very rich) individual vs trade union donations which come out of the pockets of numerous (uk-based) hard working individuals - NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE! John – you very conveniently forgot to add that Lord Cashcoft is one (very rich) individual vs trade union donations which come out of the pockets of numerous (uk-based) hard working individuals – NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE!

]]> By: John77 http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/03/questions-mount-for-tories-over-the-aschcroft-supremacy/comment-page-1/#comment-9721 John77 Wed, 03 Mar 2010 10:32:13 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=9162#comment-9721 Liz McShane - you conveniently forgot to add that trade union members get tax relief on their subscriptions and trade unions do not pay tax. All of Lord Ashcroft's donations are made out of income on which he has paid UK tax (non-doms have to pay tax on any foreign income remitted to the UK). So the lack of equivalence is that money paid to Labour via the unions is tax-free, money paid to the Conservatives is out of taxed income. Liz McShane – you conveniently forgot to add that trade union members get tax relief on their subscriptions and trade unions do not pay tax.
All of Lord Ashcroft’s donations are made out of income on which he has paid UK tax (non-doms have to pay tax on any foreign income remitted to the UK).
So the lack of equivalence is that money paid to Labour via the unions is tax-free, money paid to the Conservatives is out of taxed income.

]]> By: Liz McShane http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/03/questions-mount-for-tories-over-the-aschcroft-supremacy/comment-page-1/#comment-9704 Liz McShane Wed, 03 Mar 2010 08:07:05 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=9162#comment-9704 Guido - i forgot to add that those trade union members also pay tax on their hard earned uk salary. Guido – i forgot to add that those trade union members also pay tax on their hard earned uk salary.

]]> By: John77 http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/03/questions-mount-for-tories-over-the-aschcroft-supremacy/comment-page-1/#comment-9650 John77 Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:00:40 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=9162#comment-9650 Your graph does not reflect the story reported in The Independent, which shows that over 80% of Tory spending in marginal seats was raised locally. Over the last two years the biggest individual donor has been Lord Sainsbury who has given over £4.5m to Labour while Ashcroft has given less than £2m to the Tories, less than one-third of the amount spent. Try reading the Electoral Commission webpage. Your graph does not reflect the story reported in The Independent, which shows that over 80% of Tory spending in marginal seats was raised locally.
Over the last two years the biggest individual donor has been Lord Sainsbury who has given over £4.5m to Labour while Ashcroft has given less than £2m to the Tories, less than one-third of the amount spent. Try reading the Electoral Commission webpage.

]]> By: James Plunkett http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/03/questions-mount-for-tories-over-the-aschcroft-supremacy/comment-page-1/#comment-9581 James Plunkett Tue, 02 Mar 2010 14:50:02 +0000 http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=9162#comment-9581 <span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">RT @mydavidcameron RT @leftfootfwd Questions mount for Tories over The Aschcroft Supremacy: http://cli.gs/qgSY4</span></span> RT @mydavidcameron RT @leftfootfwd Questions mount for Tories over The Aschcroft Supremacy: http://cli.gs/qgSY4

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