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	<title>Comments on: Tory NI plans treat us all like fools</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/conservative-national-insurance-fools/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/conservative-national-insurance-fools/</link>
	<description>Left Foot Forward is a political blog for progressives. We provide evidence-based analysis on British politics, news and policy developments.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 22:58:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: huh?</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/conservative-national-insurance-fools/comment-page-1/#comment-14757</link>
		<dc:creator>huh?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Apr 2010 17:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=11082#comment-14757</guid>
		<description>Varun, you quote Chris Giles of the FT as though he is somehow verifying your theory. The sad fact is that the FT&#039;s economics editor doesn&#039;t appear to be aware that there are two components to NIC. One part is paid by the employee by being withheld from his/her salary - this is what Chris Giles is (bizarrely) referring to in his &#039;rebuttal&#039; of Tory proposals. The other part - the one which is being labelled a &#039;tax on jobs&#039; by business - is the employer&#039;s NIC contribution and  set at 12.8% of the particular employees salary. As I stated in my above post, if a worker is paid £100 a week, the actual cost to the employer is £112.80 a week when the employer&#039;s NIC contribution is also included. Labour intends to increase the employers contribution by 1%, making the cost of employing the same employee now £113.80 per week. This is obviously a tax on employment - how is this debatable.

I&#039;m afraid that the only conclusion I can draw from your post and Chris Giles&#039; post is that neither of you are aware that there are two parts to NIC. To coin a phrase, &quot;this is elementary business stuff&quot; - and neither of you, no doubt having never employed anyone yourselves, are clueless of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Varun, you quote Chris Giles of the FT as though he is somehow verifying your theory. The sad fact is that the FT&#8217;s economics editor doesn&#8217;t appear to be aware that there are two components to NIC. One part is paid by the employee by being withheld from his/her salary &#8211; this is what Chris Giles is (bizarrely) referring to in his &#8216;rebuttal&#8217; of Tory proposals. The other part &#8211; the one which is being labelled a &#8216;tax on jobs&#8217; by business &#8211; is the employer&#8217;s NIC contribution and  set at 12.8% of the particular employees salary. As I stated in my above post, if a worker is paid £100 a week, the actual cost to the employer is £112.80 a week when the employer&#8217;s NIC contribution is also included. Labour intends to increase the employers contribution by 1%, making the cost of employing the same employee now £113.80 per week. This is obviously a tax on employment &#8211; how is this debatable.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid that the only conclusion I can draw from your post and Chris Giles&#8217; post is that neither of you are aware that there are two parts to NIC. To coin a phrase, &#8220;this is elementary business stuff&#8221; &#8211; and neither of you, no doubt having never employed anyone yourselves, are clueless of it.</p>
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		<title>By: The week political opportunism replaced Tory fiscal hawkishness &#124; Left Foot Forward</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/conservative-national-insurance-fools/comment-page-1/#comment-14739</link>
		<dc:creator>The week political opportunism replaced Tory fiscal hawkishness &#124; Left Foot Forward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Apr 2010 11:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=11082#comment-14739</guid>
		<description>[...] this is in addition to Conservative plans to reverse planned National Insurance rises from April 2011, which will be funded by £6 billion worth of efficiency savings, described [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this is in addition to Conservative plans to reverse planned National Insurance rises from April 2011, which will be funded by £6 billion worth of efficiency savings, described [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Look Left – The Week in Fast Forward &#124; Left Foot Forward</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/conservative-national-insurance-fools/comment-page-1/#comment-14518</link>
		<dc:creator>Look Left – The Week in Fast Forward &#124; Left Foot Forward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:31:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=11082#comment-14518</guid>
		<description>[...] has been the row over national insurance, which continues to rumble on. Left Foot Forward has today taken apart the Tory claims on the issue, explaining the irresponsibility of describing the small rise in NI [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] has been the row over national insurance, which continues to rumble on. Left Foot Forward has today taken apart the Tory claims on the issue, explaining the irresponsibility of describing the small rise in NI [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Sensible</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/conservative-national-insurance-fools/comment-page-1/#comment-14478</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Sensible</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 15:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=11082#comment-14478</guid>
		<description>And, Cameron reckons he can find £6 billion to afford this?

What about the rest of his tax packege?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, Cameron reckons he can find £6 billion to afford this?</p>
<p>What about the rest of his tax packege?</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Sensible</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/conservative-national-insurance-fools/comment-page-1/#comment-14477</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Sensible</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 15:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=11082#comment-14477</guid>
		<description>Guys, would those retail businesses prefer an increase in VAT?

After all, all Tory governments increase VAT and, tellingly, the Director General of the British Chambers of Commerce said on the radio that VAT was the lesser of 2 evils. 

Despite the fact that an increase in VAT would directly effect those retailers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guys, would those retail businesses prefer an increase in VAT?</p>
<p>After all, all Tory governments increase VAT and, tellingly, the Director General of the British Chambers of Commerce said on the radio that VAT was the lesser of 2 evils. </p>
<p>Despite the fact that an increase in VAT would directly effect those retailers!</p>
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		<title>By: Varun</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/conservative-national-insurance-fools/comment-page-1/#comment-14450</link>
		<dc:creator>Varun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=11082#comment-14450</guid>
		<description>FT Economics Editor Chris Giles on the same topic, with the same argument - quote: &quot;national insurance cannot be described as a tax on jobs that will wreck the recovery...this is elementary textbook stuff&quot; 

http://blogs.ft.com/money-supply/2010/04/08/uk-election-2010-national-insurance-nonsense/?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ft%2Fmoney-supply+(Money+Supply)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FT Economics Editor Chris Giles on the same topic, with the same argument &#8211; quote: &#8220;national insurance cannot be described as a tax on jobs that will wreck the recovery&#8230;this is elementary textbook stuff&#8221; </p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.ft.com/money-supply/2010/04/08/uk-election-2010-national-insurance-nonsense/?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ft%2Fmoney-supply+(Money+Supply)" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.ft.com/money-supply/2010/04/08/uk-election-2010-national-insurance-nonsense/?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ft%2Fmoney-supply+(Money+Supply)</a></p>
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		<title>By: Evidence based? Really?</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/conservative-national-insurance-fools/comment-page-1/#comment-14447</link>
		<dc:creator>Evidence based? Really?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=11082#comment-14447</guid>
		<description>Tyler and Mr Furious are spot on.  Will the author admit that these charges are not evidence based?? NI is vastly different to income tax and VAT, to claim otherwise is plain wrong.  

I&#039;m honestly not sure how £6billion giving money back to consumers and business will endanger the recovery- surely it is a perfectly valid stimulus to get people spending more and not to discourage employers from hiring?

&quot;the respective positions on NI means little in economic terms&quot; Really?? Why then have all business groups, GB&#039;s own advisors (no they are not tories before you try that old hat) said that it is?  

Simple economics; the more you tax employers on the staff they take on the less profitable it is to do so.  Companies are motivated by profit, decrease the profit margin on an activity an decrease the incentive.  

I REALLY REALLY want to see the author respond to mine, Tyler and Mr Furious concerns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tyler and Mr Furious are spot on.  Will the author admit that these charges are not evidence based?? NI is vastly different to income tax and VAT, to claim otherwise is plain wrong.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m honestly not sure how £6billion giving money back to consumers and business will endanger the recovery- surely it is a perfectly valid stimulus to get people spending more and not to discourage employers from hiring?</p>
<p>&#8220;the respective positions on NI means little in economic terms&#8221; Really?? Why then have all business groups, GB&#8217;s own advisors (no they are not tories before you try that old hat) said that it is?  </p>
<p>Simple economics; the more you tax employers on the staff they take on the less profitable it is to do so.  Companies are motivated by profit, decrease the profit margin on an activity an decrease the incentive.  </p>
<p>I REALLY REALLY want to see the author respond to mine, Tyler and Mr Furious concerns.</p>
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		<title>By: huh?</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/conservative-national-insurance-fools/comment-page-1/#comment-14446</link>
		<dc:creator>huh?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=11082#comment-14446</guid>
		<description>You are being deliberately dishonest. National Insurance is made up of two components: one part is paid directly by employees (11% of your salary) and one part is paid by your employer (currently 12.8% of your salary). Accordingly if you are paid £100 a week by your employer - the actual cost per week of employing you for the employer is really £112.80 as the employer also needs to pay a NI contribution on your behalf to the HMRC. This doesn&#039;t matter so much in small companies, but in large companies  which employ hundreds or thousands of employees (i.e. the kind which are currently writing letters in support of not raising the employers contribution to NI) a 1 percentage point increase can add up to a heck of a lot. There is no room to question that this is a tax on employment - it patently is.

Labour then attack the Tories by saying it is impossible to cut £6 billion (the amount of &#039;lost revenue&#039; from not putting up the employer&#039;s contribution to NI by 1% point) from the government&#039;s budget without affecting frontline services. This year the Government is budgeting to spend £655 billion. £6 billion is therefore 0.9% of this total. Its ridiculous to say that you can&#039;t reduce this budget by less than one percent without endangering frontline jobs.  

Labour then say you can&#039;t afford to take £6 billion out of the economy at a time like this. Firstly it is not being &#039;taken out of the economy&#039; - its actually just not being taxed out of the productive side of the economy and eaten up by government. The money remains in the hands of companies who can use it to boost their profits and thus potentially hire more employees, spend it on developing new products, etc. etc. Secondly, the UK&#039;s GDP in 2010 is estimated to be about £1,200 billion. The so called £6 billion &#039;cut&#039; is only 0.5% of that total. Even if that sum was to be magically &#039;taken out of the economy&#039; (which it isn&#039;t) it wouldn&#039;t make any difference.

How this can actually be a &#039;debate&#039; mystifies me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are being deliberately dishonest. National Insurance is made up of two components: one part is paid directly by employees (11% of your salary) and one part is paid by your employer (currently 12.8% of your salary). Accordingly if you are paid £100 a week by your employer &#8211; the actual cost per week of employing you for the employer is really £112.80 as the employer also needs to pay a NI contribution on your behalf to the HMRC. This doesn&#8217;t matter so much in small companies, but in large companies  which employ hundreds or thousands of employees (i.e. the kind which are currently writing letters in support of not raising the employers contribution to NI) a 1 percentage point increase can add up to a heck of a lot. There is no room to question that this is a tax on employment &#8211; it patently is.</p>
<p>Labour then attack the Tories by saying it is impossible to cut £6 billion (the amount of &#8216;lost revenue&#8217; from not putting up the employer&#8217;s contribution to NI by 1% point) from the government&#8217;s budget without affecting frontline services. This year the Government is budgeting to spend £655 billion. £6 billion is therefore 0.9% of this total. Its ridiculous to say that you can&#8217;t reduce this budget by less than one percent without endangering frontline jobs.  </p>
<p>Labour then say you can&#8217;t afford to take £6 billion out of the economy at a time like this. Firstly it is not being &#8216;taken out of the economy&#8217; &#8211; its actually just not being taxed out of the productive side of the economy and eaten up by government. The money remains in the hands of companies who can use it to boost their profits and thus potentially hire more employees, spend it on developing new products, etc. etc. Secondly, the UK&#8217;s GDP in 2010 is estimated to be about £1,200 billion. The so called £6 billion &#8216;cut&#8217; is only 0.5% of that total. Even if that sum was to be magically &#8216;taken out of the economy&#8217; (which it isn&#8217;t) it wouldn&#8217;t make any difference.</p>
<p>How this can actually be a &#8216;debate&#8217; mystifies me.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/conservative-national-insurance-fools/comment-page-1/#comment-14425</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=11082#comment-14425</guid>
		<description>Gosh, I&#039;d never heard that one about &#039;socialists&#039; before. So original.

Let&#039;s get rid of corporation tax (a tax on jobs, obviously), income tax (deters people from spending, so destroys jobs), VAT (ditto), IHT (stops dead rich people from spending money). And so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gosh, I&#8217;d never heard that one about &#8216;socialists&#8217; before. So original.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s get rid of corporation tax (a tax on jobs, obviously), income tax (deters people from spending, so destroys jobs), VAT (ditto), IHT (stops dead rich people from spending money). And so on.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/conservative-national-insurance-fools/comment-page-1/#comment-14412</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leftfootforward.org/?p=11082#comment-14412</guid>
		<description>1. NI is a tax on jobs because both the emplyer and the employee pay it. Income tax is only paid at the employee level. So you are really quite wrong. 

3. Withdrawing £6bn from the economy? Not taking money out of people&#039;s pockets, and allowing them to spend it as they see fit is &quot;not taking mony out of the economy&quot;. 

Oh....but you&#039;re a socialist, aren&#039;t you? Spending other peoples money is what socialists do, until it runs out, isn&#039;t it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. NI is a tax on jobs because both the emplyer and the employee pay it. Income tax is only paid at the employee level. So you are really quite wrong. </p>
<p>3. Withdrawing £6bn from the economy? Not taking money out of people&#8217;s pockets, and allowing them to spend it as they see fit is &#8220;not taking mony out of the economy&#8221;. </p>
<p>Oh&#8230;.but you&#8217;re a socialist, aren&#8217;t you? Spending other peoples money is what socialists do, until it runs out, isn&#8217;t it.</p>
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