The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV

The No to AV campaign hit a new low yesterday when it emerged that Conservative party HQ had encouraged national newspapers to print pictures of Papuan tribeswomen breastfeeding pigs, suggesting that this is “what we might have to look forward to under AV.” But the “sick attack” is just the latest in a line of lies and smears from the No campaign. Left Foot Forward looks in turn at the worst five.

Claim 1: In February, No campaign boss, Matthew Elliott, wrote for Coffee House, “the NO to AV campaign has published research showing that the change to AV will cost the UK an additional £250 million”. David Cameron has repeatedly described AV as “expensive” and provocative posters have been published to dupe the public .

The truth: The £250m figure was a made up number which included the £90m cost of the referendum itself which would take place regardless of the outcome; £130m for vote counting machines which are not needed in Australia which has AV; and £26m for voter awareness which was based on the cost of the adoption of the more complex Single Transferable Vote system for Scottish Council elections. Indeed, the only piece of equipment you need to vote with AV is a pencil.

Claim 2: The No campaign issued a briefing claiming that “in at least 35 seats around the county [sic], the votes of BNP supporters could change the balance of power”. Meanwhile Baroness Warsi told Sun readers that AV would lead to “More votes, more power, more long-term legitimacy for the BNP and other fringe parties”.

The truth: Research by the Institute for Public Policy Research looked at each of the 35 seats in turn and concluded that, “extremist parties like the BNP will be penalised by AV and their recycled votes will not influence election outcomes.” Indeed, BNP votes would not have changed the outcome of a single seat. The Fact Check website concluded that, “AV is highly unlikely to help the BNP win any seats, and the secondary votes of BNP supporters alone wouldn’t swing a seat for any other party – going on last year’s results.” No wonder the BNP oppose the switch to AV and their deputy chairman told Channel 4 News, “We are never going to get our feet under the table under the AV system”.

Claim 3: David Cameron has said, “I believe in the principle of one person, one vote, and AV would mean that votes of some people get counted more than others“.

The truth: Under AV, each voter retains one vote even though they can express more than one preference. In the final reckoning no-one gets more than one vote. The Australian elections expert, Antony Green, has explained in detail that “AV does not break the principle of one person one vote”. He uses data from the International Olympic Committee’s vote to award London the 2012 Olympic games which was awarded under AV to illuminate his point.

Claim 4: While sharing a platform with David Cameron, John Reid claimed that in Australia, when AV was introduced, turnout went down and, as a result, the Australians had to make voting compulsory.

The truth: Once again Antony Green comes to the rescue and explains that, “the theory has no backing in the Australia historic record or political science literature and is completely absent as an explanation of compulsory voting in any Australian source.” In a separate blog, Green explained that, “all elections [from 1901 to 1925 when AV was introduced across the country's states] had turnouts in the range of 50-75%, and there is no particular pattern that corresponds to a change in the electoral system.”

Claim 5: David Cameron claimed that AV is a “complex” system. The official Tory HQ twitter feed has reinforced this message.

The truth: Polling for the IPPR report found that:

“AV is not too complicated to use. Two-thirds of British voters say they think AV is ‘fairly’ or ‘very easy’ to understand. UK voters have, in recent years, proved themselves to be highly adept at using a range of different electoral systems, including preferential voting systems like AV which are already used in a number of UK elections. The British public has a broad experience of using variants of AV to elect figures in organisations across the country – and to select winners in TV programmes like The X Factor. It appears that the more familiar the public are with the way AV works, the more they support reform.”

For more information on the problems with the current, First-Past-The-Post, system, and strengths and weaknesses of the Alternative Vote read these reports. But whatever you do, don’t believe another word from the No campaign.

http://twitter.com/alexander_ball/status/60614876392988672 Alex Ball

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/modditydodds/status/60615582151749632 Knut Cayce

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/unslugged/status/60615786716344320 Roger O Thornhill

Why I will vote Yes > RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/houseoftwits/status/60616246684688384 House Of Twits

RT @leftfootfwd The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/danrebellato/status/60616285607829504 Dan Rebellato

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/tales77/status/60617090138259456 Cat Hanvey

RT @unslugged: Why I will vote Yes > RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/nus_kelley/status/60617196057001984 Kelley Temple

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/amateuradam/status/60617217749946368 Adam Kay

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/dickymoo/status/60617331218452481 Dicky Moore

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
Edward Moloney

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/briancreese/status/60617897151700992 Brian Creese

The lies & Smears of the NO to AV campaign http://www.leftfootforward.org/2011/04/the-nasty-campaign-the-lies-and-smears-of-no-to-av/
http://twitter.com/jamesgfarrell/status/60617990944735232 James Farrell

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/lezlaig/status/60618613505261568 Lez Laig

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/manguitartech/status/60618653615390720 Steve Robinson

RT @unslugged: Why I will vote Yes > RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/purplemontart/status/60619215341756416 Sam Benzie

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/meralhece/status/60620396826861568 Meral Hussein- Ece

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/joshcowls/status/60622837915975680 Josh Cowls

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/brendandodds/status/60622909114294272 Brendan Dodds

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/leonieleonie/status/60624418308763648 Leonie Northedge

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/siansuniverse/status/60625134502952960 siansuniverse

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/welsh_gas_doc/status/60625423113007104 DJ

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/thegreenbenches/status/60625544387100672 Dr Eoin Clarke

RT @HouseofTwitsLab: RT @leftfootfwd The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/beccaet/status/60625658316984320 Rebecca Taylor

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/geeoharee/status/60625891499323392 Lauren G

RT @leftfootfwd The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/eyeseesound/status/60625961409978368 Julian Bowman

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/benleto/status/60626219112214528 Ben Leto

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/crosscrosslet/status/60626942281523200 Tim Weisselberg

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/frdragonspouse/status/60630108528058368 Jill Hayward

RT @HouseofTwitsLab: RT @leftfootfwd The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/markcn/status/60633504383373312 Mark Charan Newton

@unravthreads Yes: http://bit.ly/fxxIoV
http://twitter.com/brendandcruz/status/60634813127852032 Dr. Brendan D’Cruz

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/peterbjordan/status/60636810816126976 Peter Jordan

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/mathewhobson/status/60638149914791936 Mathew Hobson

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/abucketoftang/status/60639787308163072 Tristan Snowsill

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
Rebecca Taylor

I am a LibDem who has been debating voting reform on Twitter with a Tory (@mrjackjackson). Unlike the vast majority of no campaigners, he is actually prepared to discuss the issues and defend first past the post.

When I complimented him on his ability to do this rather than lie, like most no campaigners he said “that’s because lies are easy to argue”. He also quoted Tom Harris MP saying “I don’t want credibility I want to win” and said that this attitude sums up the No campaign.
http://twitter.com/steve4319/status/60647630732144640 Steve Hynd

"Conservative party HQ had encouraged national newspapers to print pictures of Papuan tribeswomen breastfeeding pigs" http://bit.ly/fFz3oS
http://twitter.com/acidfascists/status/60648226549792768 Acid Fascists

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/nrturner/status/60649350015107072 Neil Turner

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://- DAOUDI KIRARUBERWA

Dear Sir/Madam;

I’d like to tell you what i think about the AV i think at the moment we have not to get differently the organisations across the country through the Conservatives, we have to believe those Conservatives politics and continue.I think many changes of politics in the UK will be an obstacle of progress then stay in the same discussion during this period of this Government. We need to improve those have been critical but it’s not to continue in the same stand by in Britain when others won’t protest any more for their political leaders! I’d like to tell you that people had many political plans but none hadn’t passed as far as now and we need to know exactly what the youngest had of these politcal agenda, we have to understand when the youngest had promised the leaders to work with the senior but that could be in good understanding with those seniors who need to stand for those politics the youngest protested in Britain, what resolution? It’s only to believe to those people in Government and make the political agenda for us too because they do since 2010 and we’d like to know what advantages of young people in this together please?
Jonathan Phillips

No2AV, with their Tory moneybags paymasters, have run the dirtiest political campaign in British history.

What do you call someone who keeps telling lies? Why, David Cameron, of course!

Mottoes for the No campaign:

- The mass of people will more readily fall victim to a great lie than to a small one.
- Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.
- What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.

A nasty piece of work, that Adolf Hitler, but nobody’s fool
http://twitter.com/unsliced/status/60656007612870657 Chris Harrison

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
Chris Clothier

Great post. You guys are at your best with this kind of journalism.
http://twitter.com/labouryes/status/60668557687652352 Labour Yes

Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://twitter.com/archimedesuk/status/60668983229153280 Richard Shaw

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://twitter.com/jackseale/status/60669529738592257 Jack Seale

Sad to think, isn't it, that when #no2av win they'll have done it largely through brazen lying. http://bit.ly/ftOgo6 #yes2av
http://twitter.com/saxbend/status/60669830726029312 Ben Donnelly

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://twitter.com/mochaholic/status/60671464059310080 Daniel Govan

RT @jackseale: Sad to think, isn't it, that when #no2av win they'll have done it largely through brazen lying. http://bit.ly/ftOgo6 #yes2av
http://twitter.com/itinerantgeoff/status/60671473341317120 Geoff de Burca

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://twitter.com/rosscbrown/status/60672003035770880 Ross C Brown

RT @jackseale: Sad to think, isn't it, that when #no2av win they'll have done it largely through brazen lying. http://bit.ly/ftOgo6 #yes2av
http://twitter.com/bayfordtweets/status/60672613281824768 Gareth Bayford

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://twitter.com/leonardpboe/status/60672904479780864 Leo Boe

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://twitter.com/caddymation/status/60673461298798592 Ben Cadwallader

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/gJGAqj
http://twitter.com/alexbrooks/status/60674322729144320 Alex Brooks

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://twitter.com/mmmpolitics/status/60674625486594048 hannah

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://www.order-order.com Guido Fawkes

Err, IPPR’s “research” was clearly bought and paid for by Rowntree, IPPR was against AV in 2010 – got £70,000 in donations from yes funders Rowntree in early 2011 – and now it is favour of AV.

ERS Ltd makes money out of electronic-voting systems, their shareholders have authorised £2.5 million in funds for the Yes campaign. I think we can draw our own conclusions as to why.

Yes has made out that Nick Griffin is campaigning alongside David Cameron for FPTP – he isn’t, he is campaigning for PR. As smears go that is pretty poor.

You are clearly just sore losers and getting your excuses in early. The stupidity of the Yes side in not making any effort to reach out to centre-right voters is manifest. You have run a “progressive” campaign which has little appeal beyond Guardian readers. The No side made sure they reached out to Labour voters, you had UKIP on your side and cold shouldered Farage. Imbecilic.
http://twitter.com/samdownie/status/60675594651844608 Sam Downie

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://twitter.com/lauralorgy/status/60676436708704256 Laura Gordon

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://twitter.com/nonamesleft999/status/60677015895937024 John Symons

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://www.stephen.r.wigmore@googlemail.com Stephen W

The Yes campaign does seem to have gone entirely on the back foot. All they’re doing now is rebutting the No campaign rather than leading the debate themselves. This bodes badly. Guido is right. It stinks of getting your excuses in early for a big loss.

I think this is a sad day for Britain. The Yes campaign has been rubbish. It should have accepted help from Clegg and Farage and anyone else who would have spread the PRo-Av side’s appeal. I fear they have blown it by running a comfortable centre-left Ed Miliband and Caroline Lucas campaign. Smug people congratulating each other on being so clever. Not the way to win over the vast numbers of the unconcerned.
Ed’s Talking Balls

I truly hope that the Yes campaign loses. Not just for our democratic system, as I genuinely believe that FPTP is preferable to AV on its merits, but also to witness the sour grapes afterwards.

Even if the £250m figure is wrong, the referendum is an expensive sop to the Lib Dems anyway. The electorate might well be resentful to Nick Clegg and co for demanding the country spend money which it doesn’t have on something so trivial in the scheme of things.

Further, you have consistently said that AV won’t benefit the BNP, but Darren Johnson of the Greens has argued in a different article that voters for his fringe party would have more of a say under AV. Why is what’s sauce for the goose suddenly not sauce for the gander?

If we’re talking about Australia, why not mention that AV is, as I understand it, unpopular over there? And if AV’s such a wonderful system, it might be worth considering why so few countries use it for their general elections.

In terms of simplicity, I’m certain the Yes campaig has lost the argument and, in truth, never had any chance of winning it. Fair enough, polling might show that people find it easy enough to understand (although I’m dubious on this) but try asking the question ‘which do you find easier to understand, FPTP or AV? There can only be one winner: FPTP is inherently simpler.

My last point on this very lengthy post (sorry about that!) is about ERS Ltd’s donation. Smear or not, it looks bad and you can’t deny that. In any context, people are going to be sceptical of donations made by private companies. Aside from charitable donations, private companies don’t do something for nothing. Perhaps ERS Ltd could give a solemn promise, backed up by contract, that it will never supply voting machines for use in UK elections? That would sort it.
Ed’s Talking Balls

P.S. Completely agree with Stephen W that the smugness of AV’s proponents is enough to put anyone off.
http://twitter.com/meanstreakuk/status/60701019193098240 pɹǝɥ uɐp

RT @jackseale: Sad to think, isn't it, that when #no2av win they'll have done it largely through brazen lying. http://bit.ly/ftOgo6 #yes2av
http://twitter.com/fairervoter/status/60717934774992896 Eamon Walsh

RT @caddymation: RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/gJGAqj
http://twitter.com/fairervoter/status/60718038126837760 Eamon Walsh

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://twitter.com/richardburdenmp/status/60728197746135040 Richard Burden

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://twitter.com/jessica_asato/status/60731124317560832 Jessica Asato

Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yes2av
http://twitter.com/tombrookspolloc/status/60732121299435520 Tom Brooks-Pollock

RT @Jessica_Asato: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yes2av
http://twitter.com/amydodd80/status/60738992462766080 amy dodd

RT @Jessica_Asato: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yes2av
http://twitter.com/dintibatstone/status/60759316386414592 Dinti Batstone

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
Barry

The BNP wants a system of PR( my favoured system would be Germany’s Additional Member System). PR is FAIR to ALL sides of the political spectrum. AV is only likely to benefit Labour, Lib Dems, Greens and the odd Tory protest vote of UKIP. This has been recognised by many ordinary people and it is this aspect of the debate along with the Yes campaign’s image of being a front for liberal luvies which will be its undoing.
http://twitter.com/stevekettell/status/60806651808198657 Steve Kettell

The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://zite.to/hlokKE via @Ziteapp
http://twitter.com/chiaracrean/status/60835043953741824 Chiara Crean

Smear tactics from the no to AV campaign, giving more reasons to say YES to AV http://bit.ly/fxxIoV
http://twitter.com/dtwatkin/status/60889980041568256 David Watkin

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
CCMc

G’Day all, Im Australian and am a member of the Liberal Party of Australia – Australia’s equivelent to the consevative party. I’m astonished by the lack of truth from the no campaign, particularly about the lies about Australia.
http://twitter.com/andycsaul/status/60980333100810240 Andy Saul

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/dFwZYa
http://twitter.com/merleneemerson/status/60998730165391361 Merlene Emerson

Leafletting S Ken tube stn. If only those conned by lies by No camp cd read this @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign.. http://bit.ly/gJGAqj
http://twitter.com/mechanimal/status/61056149528653824 toby brading

RT @leftfootfwd: The Nasty Campaign: the lies and smears of No to AV http://bit.ly/gJGAqj
Will Podmore

A Yes campaign spokesman said: “Let’s put it this way. Operation Black Vote, the Muslim Council of Britain and a host of similar groups are backing the ‘Yes’ campaign. The BNP are backing the ‘No’ campaign. People can draw their own conclusions.”
So the Yes campaign smears No voters with the BNP brush. This is to let the BNP do your thinking for you.

Further, if we vote No, then the LibDems will have got nothing out of joining the Conservatives. Without the cushion of gaining AV, LibDem MPs would have to do more to save their seats, so they might even have to keep one or two of their election promises.
Daniel

@Talking Balls: I am an Australian who simply can’t believe the British wouldn’t want the AV system (that’s why I’m posting here). AV is VERY popular in Australia, (even more so amongst people who bother to understand it). There has been one(!) poll in the last 20 years that even suggested that people may prefer FPTP, but even that poll gave people a choice between compulsory preferential voting (the system we have now), and non-compulsory FPTP. A lot of Australians would prefer not to have to vote at all, which explains the result of the poll.

The reason the BNP would be disadvantaged, but the Greens could be better off is that extremist parties do worse under AV, while parties that appeal to people who make informed decisions and are genuinely concerned with the outcome do better. See here: http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2011/04/is-fptp-or-av-better-for-minor-parties-and-independents.html

Another misrepresentation I’ve seen is that there will be more spoiled ballot papers. Perhaps a few, but from checking what is actually proposed for the UK, no ballot paper that was valid under FPTP would be invalid under AV in the UK. You don’t have to add a preference if you don’t want to!

AV lets me vote for the people I really want to govern without worrying about throwing away my vote. If I want to vote for the Greens I can without worrying that they might only get 10% of the vote, because I know that I can preference Labor or Liberal, and get a say when it comes down to a 2 horse race between the two of them. What’s not to like about that? The result is the same as if it were just the two of them running.

Some of my fellow Australians have been very insulted in the last few weeks by British politicians and leading figures claiming Australia is in some way undemocratic. That’s ridiculous. We’ve had preferential voting for 80 years, and nobody has ever tried to change it because we all happy with the result.
http://twitter.com/trevdick/status/62500832523988992 Trevor Stables

RT @labouryes: Left Foot Forward: Why "No to AV" are the nasty campaign http://bit.ly/eXNqdW #labouryes #yesinmay
http://dalstonliteraryreview.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/reformendum/ Reformendum | dalstonliteraryreview

[...] as the no camp has made out, partly because the figure of GBP250 million provided by them is a falsification (and the source of much of the current acrinomy), and partly because the actual figure of less than [...]