Memo to Westminster: UK “independent nuclear deterrent” not actually independent

Memo to Westminster: UK "independent nuclear deterrent" not actually independen: http://bit.ly/lUUfw3 by @CNDuk's Kate Hudson

RT @leftfootfwd: Memo to Westminster: UK "independent nuclear deterrent" not actually independent: http://bit.ly/lUUfw3 by Kate Hudson

RT @leftfootfwd:Westminster: UK "independent nuclear deterrent" not actually independent http://t.co/LqYiDyW @TheGreenBenches

RT @leftfootfwd: Memo to Westminster: UK "independent nuclear deterrent" not actually independent: http://bit.ly/lUUfw3 by Kate Hudson

Memo to Westminster: UK "independent nuclear deterrent" not actually independen: http://bit.ly/lUUfw3 by @CNDuk's Kate Hudson

RT @leftfootfwd: Memo to Westminster: UK independent nuclear deterrent not actually independen: http://bit.ly/lUUfw3 by @CNDuk's Kate Hudson

RT @leftfootfwd: Memo to Westminster: UK "independent nuclear deterrent" not actually independent http://t.co/UzLepdO

This stuff really is a historical throw-back. The idea of another country seriously contemplating the invasion of Britain unless we can threaten a nuclear attack is surely pure fantasy (presumiably we aren’t thinking we can nuke another country in circumstances other than attempted invasion!). If the world’s undisputed superpower struggles to pasify poverty stricken countries like Afghanistan and Iraq with populations of around 30 million who on earth is going to take on Britain?

So what of deterring others from obtaining similar weapons? Well on the basis that people are essentially similar everywhere: how would we act if we were the one’s without nukes and living in a world where our influence was less than those with big weapons?!

Finally there are the vested interests: who stands to gain from expenditure on and possession of more mega weapons. Seemingly not the average British resident who has a lower standard of living and far from rosey prosepcts compared to many non-nuclear counterparts like Germans, Swedes etc.

Getting back to the article – instead of thinking about the extent to which our nukes are independent, perhaps we’d be better thinking about our own independence. If the global economy went belly up (as likely as being invaded), would we have to start a war with someone to ensure we could eat?

RT @leftfootfwd: Memo to Westminster: UK "independent nuclear deterrent" not actually independent: http://bit.ly/lUUfw3 by Kate Hudson

Nice to see an old Stalinist stirring up Enoch Powell-style anti-American British nationalism.

Would you be happy with Britain having nukes if they were truly independent from the US? Presumably not. So please find a proper argument.

How about criticisng the directionlessness and paranoia of our moribund ruling class, which sees risks and threats everywhere in what is really nowadays a shockingly safe world? As everyone asks: Who in the real world are we going to be firing these nukes at?

PS. Loved you in Almost Famous.

Memo to Westminster: UK "independent nuclear deterrent" not actually independen: http://bit.ly/lUUfw3 by @CNDuk's Kate Hudson

This is perhaps the most obtuse post I have seen on LFF.

It is quite impossible to discern whatever point it is that you think you’re making, but the claims you make are nonsensical.

“Basically, it seems the Brits want eight and the US prefer 16, so they are compromising on 12. As other commentators have pointed out, presumably that means we are paying more for something that is larger than we need”

Really? You don’t know much about engineering or manufacturing, do you? Which do you think would be the most cost-effective solution?

a) Specify, engineer and build an 8-tube boat on our own
b) Pay for a 16-tube boat built to US spec
c) Pay for a smaller, cheaper 12-tube boat built to joint US/UK spec

(You do know that our Vanguard boats differ from the US’s Ohio-class subs in exactly this regard already?)

We would actually get better value for money with a shared design, and it would give us a greater capability than we could afford on our own. The more similar the boats are, the more economies of scale there are likely to be operationally too, since it will increase the mutual compatibility of naval bases in the Clyde and on both US coasts.

“…no single element of the system – neither submarine, nor missile, nor warhead…is independent”

We have never really had an “independent” nuclear deterrent, ever since the Americans recruited our truly independent scientific progress to the Manhattan project. Hence, the Americans are also bereft of an “independent” deterrent.

What is the problem?

There is no-one outside the UK chain of command involved in the launch procedure. If sole ownership of intellectual property is your concern (I’ve no idea to whom the CND propose we might sell this, there being no other benefit from having it), then if this were a genuine issue, we might expect the Pentagon to be a little more worried about it than the CND. (They’ve had 53 years to get uptight about using the UK as a source of plutonium after all).

What is your point?

Dave I think we only need look at the likes of Iran to see why we need a nuclear deterrent.

I think the government have effectively ducked a decision on this for political purposes.

If the missiles are leased from the US do we not have to ask the owner or permission to fire them?
Do we have independent launch codes?

“It is true that it is frankly inconceivable we would use our nuclear deterrent(sic) alone, without the US…”

“So, after some genuine consideration and reconsideration, I opted to renew it. But the contrary decision would not have been stupid”

Tony Blair, “A Journey, p635/6.

@Trevor A Smith

The public gets confused over this. We don’t need US authorization to launch them, but they have withheld “launch code”, meaning their targeting software. Sharing it is deemed too high a security risk, since it could be used to make their missiles inoperable, however we write our own.

Mr S – I disagree with you on Iran. I can honestly say that I do not fear an Iranian attack unless we or the Americans do something really stupid (possible?). I know they brutalise their own people and of course I’d rather they didn’t get their own weapons, but us getting new ones doesn’t sound like a clever way to get them to drop that plan. I’d say Isreal is more worrying in terms of kicking something stupid off.

“There is no-one outside the UK chain of command involved in the launch procedure.”

That’s the biggest load of boollox 13eastie has come out with for a long time, and boy does he write some ignorant shit.

I agree with a deterrent because Mutually Assured Destruction works, that’s why the Cold War was stopped from becoming the Third World War, because both sides realised fighting against a nuclear capable opponent is unwinnable. Whenever victory looks assured you have a dangerous enemy in a corner with nothing to lose.

Without any nuclear capabilities, this isn’t a obstacle for war. And it’s very easy to say you can’t see a scenario where someone would want to declare war on us but that’s just silly, it’s only with hindsight we can make judgements what should have been done, right now we have no idea what events could happen in the future.

The intentions to disarm are noble but naive at best and horribly dangerous ignorance at worse, after the First World War we tried to disarm somewhat and all that happened was that we were woefully unprepared to face an urgent threat in Nazi Germany.

Giving us the lesson, that just because we don’t want to fight doesn’t mean no one else does.

And it’s better to have the deterrent than not if any threat comes down to it and hope that deterrent avoids the devastation of war.

Richard,

The accusation of ignorance would carry more weight if, rather than littering the page with profanity, you were to venture into the bargain some evidence that you are possessed of greater knowledge than those whom you accuse!

RT @leftfootfwd: Memo to Westminster: UK "independent nuclear deterrent" not actually independent: http://bit.ly/lUUfw3 by Kate Hudson

Micheal – do you think that British people are somehow fundamentally different to people living in other countries. You seem to be saying that a country that doesn’t have nuclear weapons is just silly and leaving themselves open to whatever might be around the corner. On that basis do you seriously think the world would be safer if every country had nukes? Or is it a case that we’re somehow special? Other countries should realise that the world is safer when we have nukes and more dangerous when they have them? Can’t see that one being the basis for world peace!

multilateral disarmament would be lovely but will never happen. till then the uk should keep a nuclear stockpile to keep relevant on a world stage, otherwise, as nye bevan said, the foreign secretary would walk “naked into the conference chamber”

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