Government’s latest u-turn puts political goals ahead of effective jails

RT @leftfootfwd: Government's latest u-turn puts political goals ahead of effective jails http://t.co/iD4inYb

Government's latest u-turn puts political goals ahead of effective jails: http://bit.ly/kD69pf writes @TheHowardLeague's Frances Crook

RT @leftfootfwd: Government's latest u-turn puts political goals ahead of effective jails: http://bit.ly/kD69pf <–I concur

Government’s latest u-turn puts political goals ahead of effective jails I Left Foot Forward – http://j.mp/kyshSb

You can pick absurd (and frankly baseless) xamples like “sent to prison for flouting the smoking ban”, all you want, but for working class communities up and down the country, people who should be in prison not being in prison is a bigger problem than people who should not be in prison being in prison.

Government's latest u-turn puts political goals ahead of effective jails: http://bit.ly/kD69pf writes @TheHowardLeague's Frances Crook

Government's latest u-turn puts political goals ahead of effective jails: http://bit.ly/kD69pf writes @TheHowardLeague's Frances Crook

Thank goodness the government saw sense on this issue.

You can whine and moan about it all you want. You can even dismiss it as ‘technocratic’ and deride legitimate concerns as ‘squabbling’. In fact, please do because all it serves to do is harden public opinion against you and your ilk even further.

Prison works. The government would be well served to do the opposite of what you recommend, both in terms of protecting the public and enhancing its own chances at the ballot box.

So sending people to prison for petty non violent offences isn’t a big deal? So Oldpolitics you wouldn’t mind if it was your wife/ son/ father send to prison unnecessarily when a community penalty would have been more appropriate?
Oh and not so baseless: a quick google search produced
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article570995.ece
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8540651.stm

plus this one http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jun/01/mentally-ill-treated-like-criminals

Government's latest u-turn puts political goals ahead of effective jails: http://bit.ly/kD69pf writes @TheHowardLeague's Frances Crook

Finally this government has woken up to the wishes of the public. I’ve been with Labour all along on this thing.

Prison works and this Howard League want to start employing people who come from sink estates and normal life instead of the university educated middle class backgrounds they all have.

Try having your house robbed 4 times in one month and you’ll see things differently but the workers at this league would know nothing about the real world. If the burglar was in prison he couldn’t rob people’s houses.

Simple as…

Anon,

You say:

“Prison works and this Howard League want to start employing people who come from sink estates and normal life instead of the university educated middle class backgrounds they all have.

Try having your house robbed 4 times in one month and you’ll see things differently but the workers at this league would know nothing about the real world. If the burglar was in prison he couldn’t rob people’s houses”

You are confusing simplistic with “simple as”.

First of all your example cited is totally preposterous. A home robbed 4 times in one month must have the most efficient and forgiving insurance coverage known to man, not to mention phenomenally quick replacement provision. Your example is also interesting given that you have accused, derided and chastised others in previous postings with regard to presenting fabrications. It seems you are not so different from those you have called liars.
Secondly, the notion that if they are locked up you are safe pays no attention to the fact that unless you have blanket indeterminate sentencing, these people will get out eventually and there is much evidence to support the contention that they come out much more hardened in criminality than when they went in.

Thirdly your bellicose musings ignore certain principles of justice, such as having the punishment fit the crime.

It may also be useful for you,13 eastie and the other trolls to at least view the Howard League website before your ill considered bellyaching.

scandalousbill – I have repeatedly asked this group to explain why my position is wrong with respect to the following statistic. Of the people let out early from jail under Labour…

16,334 of these offenders were serving sentences for violence against the person.
1,234 offenders were reported for alleged re-offending while on early release.
1,624 alleged offences were committed by offenders on early release.
125 offenders recalled for alleged re-offending or breaching the terms of their early release are still at large.

That means 1634 crimes were committed (at least) that wouldn’t have been committed had those criminals still been in prison.

Which just shows that I’m afraid to say you are wrong. I’m with Labour on this. Prison works.

And by the way the Gurnos Estate is in Merthyr Tydfil – the woman had no insurance and applied for 4 crisis loans in one month. She had nothing worth stealing. The loan money went into her arm or was smoked as crack and her children were taken off her. That situation is not unique and this group need to get real because working class people don’t need to be patronised by these bleeding heart liberals…

(And don’t call me a troll – I take it as a compliment on this site)

“Oh and not so baseless: a quick google search produced”… someone who was sent to prison for owing the Government a 5-figure sum, imposed after they continually allowed the smoking ban to be regularly breached at premises under their control.

A bit different from the implication that people were being thrown in prison for lighting up.

scandalousbill,

I don’t know what a ‘troll’ is supposed to mean in this context. If it is someone who has a different view to yours, then I, like Anon E Mouse, take it as a compliment.

I rarely agree with Labour policies but thankfully am not so tribal as to fail to recognise sense when I see it. Therefore, I actually agree with Labour on law and order and strongly disagree with Ken Clarke, other woolly Tories, the Lib Dems and, of course, The Howard League.

The fact that the author of this piece so blithely referred to ‘a technocratic issue’ and ‘squabbling’ backs up Anon E Mouse’s view that a liberal attitude to law and order is held by those less likely to be affected by crime. And certainly, I would never joke about the possibility of a house being burgled four times in a month. I never want to be that person who is so detached from such a serious issue.

Anon,

A troll is what a troll does. Conjuring up the notion of a robbery every week, 4 times a month…., to attack the OP certainly is not a balanced debate on the facts or between different political positions.

The OP specifically points to the futility of short term incarceration; the numbers you cite pertain to recidivism rates, i.e. re-offences committed after prison release. Not the same thing at all. On this point, the OP can claim agreement from such bodies as the Prison Governors Association (PGA) and NAPO (the Trade Union and Professional Association for Family Court and Probation Staff). Now unless you can convincingly maintain that these professional groups “know nothing about the real world”, it would seem that this position has gained traction with those entrusted with the management and administration of the penal system.

The problem of recidivism is indeed serious. However, the linkage you, Old Politics and Eds Talking Balls make between re-offending and early release is spurious. Within the context of short term sentences, i.e. those under one year, is it really salient that re-offences occur in December as opposed to July? Is not the key problem the fact that re-offences occur, and at an increasing rate, the main issue?
In fact, the reoffending rates of 70% could well indicate, within the context of your loving parroting of Michael Howard’s infamous statement, that Prison does not work all that well.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/04/jail-less-effective-community-service

The solution proposed by Crispin Blunt in the article is ludicrous.

“Reoffending rates among short-term prisoners remain unacceptably high. We will address this failure in the system by making prisons places of hard work which prepare offenders more effectively in the outside world.”

I would argue a significant issue with recidivism is the reintegration of the released offender back into society. Incarcerating minor offenders, working them hard, and then placing back into the same situation from which they emerged, while satisfying a punitive desire to inflict punishment, and does nothing to correct the circumstances that lead to the original offence. You are equally likely to release a much more hardened and angry individual on the road to more serious offences. This is particularly true in the case of Youth Offenders, as even the Government has conceded in focusing upon aspects of social exclusion.

http://enquire.hertscc.gov.uk/qol/2003/esocialexc03.pdf

The fact that 71% of young offenders were not in work or education should focus our attention more on the need to address the more odious outcomes of social inequality, initiatives to prevent the creation of a lost generation, than “Prison Works” Chain gang-esque approach to inflict punishment which you seem to endorse.

RT @leftfootfwd: UK Government's latest u-turn puts political goals ahead of effective jails http://t.co/mfi6RuR

scandalousbill – No problem. Build more jails and bang them up for longer.

I’m with Labour on this one – prison works and the government is wrong…

(Having said that I wouldn’t put many groups in jail fraudsters for example pose no risk to the public so I’d hit them in the pocket and fine them so excessively they’d never do it again. Even the awful Geoffrey Archer should have lost his title and been financially squeezed until his pips squeeked…)

Anon,

You say:

” No problem. Build more jails and bang them up for longer.

I’m with Labour on this one – prison works and the government is wrong…”

But if “Prison works” as you say, why would you need to build more prisons? It seems to me that if that policy was successful you would need less and less prison space as the policy objectives are achieved and crime rates are reduced. Your words not only indicate that prisons are not working but a fundamental flaw and contradiction with your position.

Prison works brilliantly.
For generating crime.

There are plenty of good studies showing that short prison sentences don’t work, but following science is /hard/ apparently. Especially at a time of low employment, all you’re doing is ensuring that people have no chance of getting work and that they’ll reoffend. Heck, even if they don’t get caught, they have new contacts within the criminal community…it’s really quite simple to trace, if you are not blinded by ideology.

Also, “working prisoners hard”? For what? Breaking rocks? Providing profit to private companies and hence providing a perverse incentive to keep jails full?

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