The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration)

The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration): http://bit.ly/nsRoox by Declan Gaffney

RT @leftfootfwd: The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration): http://bit.ly/nsRoox by Declan Gaffney #work

The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration) l Left Foot Forward – http://bit.ly/ogch1j

The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration): http://bit.ly/nsRoox

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The bad news in yesterday's employment stats (and it's not about migration): Yesterday's monthly labour market s… http://bit.ly/nrNKzV

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The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration): http://bit.ly/nsRoox by Declan Gaffney

The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration): http://bit.ly/nsRoox by Declan Gaffney

I’m sorry, I have to disagree.

They know full-well what the figures mean, they just want to end migration.
As the ONS have noted, migration is economically positive, but that doesn’t matter to them either.

The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration): http://bit.ly/nsRoox by Declan Gaffney

‘migration is economically positive’

And to hell with any social implications…

Nice to see the Daily Mail using migration as a smokescreen for failed policies…

The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration): http://bit.ly/nsRoox by Declan Gaffney

RT @leftfootfwd The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration): http://bit.ly/nsRoox by Declan Gaffney #ppnuk

Ed – STEELIN YA JOBS. I get it. And I’ve said before, there needs to be targeted funding available for communities with rapidly changing numbers of immigrants.

We have depending on the measure used, between 7.5% and 9% of people living in the UK born abroad. That’s very, very low by the standards of Western democracies, and our immigrant populations are more concentrated than most, in good part because of hostility in previous decades.

As someone who’s a 3rd gen immigrant, but look like your average British white boy, the sort of xenophobic nonsense I hear sprouted from people like you in the street is sickening.

The claim that migrants are disproportionately accessing jobs in Britain compared to workers of UK nationality is base…http://lnkd.in/_4_yKX

The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration): http://bit.ly/nsRoox by Declan Gaffney

The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration): http://bit.ly/nsRoox by Declan Gaffney

RT @leftfootfwd: The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration) http://t.co/pxIAXZc

Leon Wolfson – Where do you get your stats from? Have you never read what Labour’s own man, Andrew Nether said?

In the 50 local authorities in England with the highest rate of net international migration:

A higher unemployment rate – bigger by 1.7 percentage points
A lower rate of employment – 4.7 percentage points lower on average
A higher rate of economic inactivity – 3.6 percentage points higher
A lower rate of employment for UK born members of the workforce – 2.8 percentage points lower
A lower rate of employment for non-UK born members of the workforce – 7.7 percentage points lower

That’s why Gordon Brown wanted British Jobs for British Workers. As for immigrants living together because of “hostilities” as a second generation half immigrant I can say that is total bulls*%t. People live together because they want to be near their relatives and like minded folks. If there were all these “hostilities” as you describe why would they come here?

Let’s see what excuses you’ve got the that lot of statistics and Andrew Nether’s report…

The bad news in yesterday's employment stats (and it's not about migration): They were particularly disappointin… http://bit.ly/nqJpju

Anon,

You ask:

“Where do you get your stats from? Have you never read what Labour’s own man, Andrew Nether said?”

Quick question, are you referring to Andrew Neather?

With regard to your statistics you may want to refer to The Home Office report, Family Migration Evidence and Analysis:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/occ94/occ94?view=Binary

This report focuses on non EEA nationals settling in the UK. On page 7, the table clearly indicates that immigrants have a higher employment rate, compared to the UK national average, for those over 16 for both male and female. Even though the female population of some immigrant groups are much lower, the overall statistics counter your assertions. You may also find the tables, (A1 to A4), in the appendices interesting.

RT @leftfootfwd: The bad news in yesterday’s employment stats (and it’s not about migration) http://t.co/Blvw08c

Oh,

And BTW Anon, the report also notes that these groups, on average, earn below the UK median wage.

Mouse/5: Correlation isn’t causation, though. You could equally run it the other way – most immigrants aren’t particularly well-off when they immigrate, so they are more likely to end up in cheap and economically-depressed areas.

4. Pathetic, typical leftist response.

Throw open the borders and stuff the consequences.

The sort of smearing, dismissive nonsense the public constantly hears spouted by people like you is sickening.

cim – I understand the OECD stated that 3 out of every 4 jobs went to foreign born workers and that 1.77 million jobs are now done by non Brits.

You surely cannot be suggesting that it is acceptable that Brits languish on benefits whilst foreigners do the jobs they won’t do?

That is just a method of keeping people dependant on benefits and completely against the founding values of the Labour Party – a party founded to protect the Working Classes.

I agree on the economically depressed areas but Leon Wolfson is trying to argue it is because of hostilities towards them which is just nonsense…

scandalousbill – And whilst I accept that they earn less on average than UK Nationals (and more than me incidentally) they are also entitled to benefits and send a large proportion out of the country which does not benefit this country one bit.

If we still had a manufacturing industry that would help but whilst we have unskilled Brits unemployed I cannot see a single reason for bringing extra people in. It’s just madness….

Anon – Unlike you, I can read a map. And even the office of budgetary fiddling agrees immigrants are economically positive.

“If there were all these “hostilities” as you describe why would they come here?”

…Economics. Thanks for proving my point with your hostility, though. More, many are NOT entitled to benefits (but pay NI anyway). And of course, your party has banning *skilled* workers coming here, hurting the economy.

Priorities, I understand. Xenophobia > Fixing the country.

Anon,

You say:

“…whilst I accept that they earn less on average than UK Nationals (and more than me incidentally) they are also entitled to benefits and send a large proportion out of the country which does not benefit this country one bit.”

First point, if they are employed, they are making tax and NI contributions not collecting benefits. As tax payers, they would be entitled to do so should their employment situation deteriorate. Unless you can provide some evidence to show that they are doing both simultaneously, you position is fallacy. The fact they use their remaining disposable income to help out their relatives or friends from their homeland, as opposed to buying DVDs, going to a pub or restaurant, etc., is really a red herring.

A second point you may wish to consider is, that if the contentions of the right wing media, IDS, Migration Watch et al assert has any grounding, namely, that the vast majority of jobs created has gone to immigrants, then the persistence of these groups income trailing the national average wage could indicate the low quality of the jobs created by the Tory lead coalition. BTW manufacturing, while still not a major contributor to UK GDP, has been a growth area, particularly in the Midlands, (Birmingham, Coventry and area).

Leon Wolfson – I don’t know if you’re joking to be honest but assuming you’re not please tell me where I have been “hostile” towards any immigrant and when you can’t, (because I haven’t) please apologise for attempting to misrepresent my position.

We may have disagreements on many things but at no point have I ever made any disparaging comment towards you despite the ease in which I could do it considering your support of a highly hypocritical political party.

Please extend me the same courtesy.

scandalousbill – That red herring you describe sends money from this country which benefits those overseas. A close Indian friend of mine does exactly that month on month.

As for the jobs situation you are just making statements and not considering for example that when the boarders were opened to the Poles, despite the warnings, unemployment went up hugely amongst the indigenous population.

This unemployment situation has arisen for the last 20 years and why as a country we accept it is OK for people not to do jobs and to believe that say Pakistanis should do them is racism surely.

People benefit from work and should be encouraged to take any job they can do. Every politician knows it but to accept 1.7 million jobs that could be done by Brits aren’t being is just crazy…

Mouse – Except you have. Because those hostilities you claim don’t exist have affected me, multiple times.

And you keep on making these claims…in your last post about Poles…you’re quite clearly both bitter and xenophobic. The UK does not accept unskilled labour from outside the EU, so the same applies to your claim about Pakistanis – it’s a good old fashioned Tory attack!

Never mind, I’m sure you have more ideas about further slashing the UK’s educational system (which will lead to EU graduates taking more jobs here) and increasing inequality (since we’re bleeding, to other countries, vital mid-wage jobs – and the Tories have managed to destroy the prospects of several industries here entirely, like the Games Industry).

Leon Wolfson – I don’t know if you’re joking to be honest but assuming you’re not please tell me where I have been “hostile” towards any immigrant and when you can’t, (because I haven’t) please apologise for attempting to misrepresent my position.

Waiting….

Leon Wolfson – Read page 7 from scandalousbill’s link:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/occ94/occ94?view=Binary

Leon Wolfson – I never mentioned education – you did…

Given what you actually said was that there was no hostility towards immigrants? Keep waiting.

Anon,

You say:

“As for the jobs situation you are just making statements and not considering for example that when the boarders were opened to the Poles, despite the warnings, unemployment went up hugely amongst the indigenous population.”

“This unemployment situation has arisen for the last 20 years and why as a country we accept it is OK for people not to do jobs and to believe that say Pakistanis should do them is racism surely.”

I will not even begin to ask you what you mean by” the indigenous population”. With regard to your notion of “racism surely”, I would point out that term “the indigenous population” in reference to the UK has been used extensively by Nick Griffin. You and Eds Talking Balls should contemplate the similarities of your statements with his; they are hardly a Labour Party for the working class advocacy, are they?

The free movement of EU labour to the UK began when Britain entered the European Community, not when Poland joined the EU. Are you advocating a forced repatriation of UK expats and workers in the EEA to shore up the “the indigenous population” and fill the lower paying jobs “that say Pakistanis should do”?

Your position as stated neglects to look at reciprocal nature of employment figures and to realize that while immigration statistics are static based upon individual entry to the UK, employment figures a relative measure of jobs created/jobs ended nor based upon a one to one relationship between employee and jobs. For example, as a contractor, I would work for multiple customers is any one given year or monthly period, both in the UK and EEA. There are many other fluctuations, (e.g. full time/part time employment, casual seasonal employment, etc.), that high level statistics, such as those used by you in this case, fail to account for and render the conclusions questionable
A final point, your argument fails to offer any evidence to remotely provide a causal link between Polish and other New EU Memberships and decline in UK employment for UK nationals.

Anon,

I would also be interested to know whom you hold at fault for the decline of UK employment for UK Nationals, the immigrants or the UK employers who hired them?

scandalousbill – I do not blame the immigrants for coming here to work. I blame successive governments, starting with John Major who massaged the employment figures and allowed people to accept worklessness as a lifestyle choice and I can assure you it is taken by some as exactly that.

I also blame employers for paying such low wages the Brits won’t do them.

You are aware my missus (as a child protection social worker) comes across families who have not worked for three generations and refuse to do cleaning jobs or fruit picking because they believe they are too good for that position.

As long as this country allows less skilled jobs to be taken by migrants the true face of unemployment will be unknown. My statistics are from the ONS btw:

Immigration has also entered the election debate in a limited way with figures from the Office for National Statistics showing that almost every job created under Labour has gone to a foreign worker. The statistics show that 98% of 1.67 million new posts were taken by immigrants, adding fuel to the argument of those who argue that immigration into the UK is out of control.

£4billion a year is sent home by Poles alone btw…

scandalousbill – Regarding your question about the effect on UK unemployment it is obvious that if Gordon Brown had been able to give British jobs to British workers the unemployment level would be down by at least 1.7 million from the stat above….

Anon,

You say:

“The statistics show that 98% of 1.67 million new posts were taken by immigrants, adding fuel to the argument of those who argue that immigration into the UK is out of control.”

As I Previously stated, Immigration statistics are static, employment figures are relative. There is no one to one correlation between the two. The error is one of misplaced concreteness in interpretation by the analyst, not an avalanche of immigrants.

Your basic problem of comparing apples with oranges as the saying goes

‘I would point out that term “the indigenous population” in reference to the UK has been used extensively by Nick Griffin. You and Eds Talking Balls should contemplate the similarities of your statements with his; they are hardly a Labour Party for the working class advocacy, are they?’

Oh for goodness sake, this really is weak.

Firstly, nothing I have said can be read as an echo of Nick Griffin; strangely that is because my views do not align even remotely with his. To suggest otherwise is a baseless and outrageous slur. I imagine that claiming that statements expressed by Anon E Mouse and me are similar to those made by a Holocaust denier was a not-so-subtle attempt to shut down debate, in true leftist style.

Secondly, even if (in some parallel universe) I had expressed sentiments similar to Griffin on any one issue, that wouldn’t be sufficient to dismiss my view. Yes, fair enough, if I were to share his views on the Holocaust then I could rightly be dismissed as a fascist. But if he were to state that the Earth is not flat, and I were to agree, then I join him and innumerable others in holding a correct view. So if Griffin says that immigration in this country has accelerated rapidly in recent years and caused many social problems, then I won’t be dissuaded from agreeing with him just because I disagree with him in the strongest possible terms on many other issues.

Play the ball, not the man.

Eds talking Balls,

You say:

“So if Griffin says that immigration in this country has accelerated rapidly in recent years and caused many social problems, then I won’t be dissuaded from agreeing with him just because I disagree with him in the strongest possible terms on many other issues.”

OK, you have the floor. So, which of the many social problems have immigrants caused? And what evidence can you provide to support your accusations?

scandalousbill – It is not comparing different things when the description is of a job and a person to fill that job.

It is not a fantasy figure – it is 1.7 million jobs that have been 98% filled by non indigenous workers.

The number is 1.7 million scandalousbill. If foreign born workers hadn’t been here to fill those jobs then they would have to have been done by locals…

You want a graph to show all social problems associated with immigration? I’m afraid you’ll be sorely disappointed. Not everything in life can be plotted on graphs and pored over by statisticians. I’m not going to go searching for them, but I reckon you could satisfy your curiosity by finding some charts showing that population growth on a small island has been driven, and is predicted to be driven among other things by immigration. There might be a table somewhere which shows how much public services spend on translation services too. There may or may not be one which shows how many people in this country have English as their first language or can at least speak it so that they can be understood. And while statistics exist on the number of illegal immigrants, they can hardly be relied upon since those who are here illegally don’t tell to fill in census forms or pay taxes.

Carry on believing, in your haughty manner, that those who have problems with immigration on the current scale are deluded fanatics. Polls indicate that there are many such people and, in areas such as Barking, they are among the working class that Labour was formed to represent. Shame that they have been abandoned, but I doubt they’ll forget.

scandalousbill – I’m not trying to sound racist because I am far from that and whilst playing devils advocate here how about:

“Social cohesion is wrecked with mass migration to an area. Bradford riots for example.”

As Labour’s Jack Straw effectively articulated it is not possible to have a conversation with a woman forced to wear a death shroud burqa by her misogynistic husband which results in fragmentation of the community.

Go on….

Anon,

Given your Bradford reference, would you say then that British expatriates have wrecked the Costa del Sol, Costa Brava, Cyprus and other such areas? I do feel that you are playing devil’s advocate in this instance.

Ed Talking Balls. Given your rant, the questions you need to answer is what are you so afraid of and why are you so afraid?

Nothing remotely resembling a rant in my comment. Quite a bit of issue-avoidance and obfuscation in your responses, however.

I see you’ve heeded my advice to carry on in your haughty manner. Good to see that something at least can permeate that thick skull of yours.

scandalousbill – We are not discussing ex-pats fella and nor do I remember any riots caused by Brits abroad.

What’s your answer to the question though: As Labour’s Jack Straw effectively articulated it is not possible to have a conversation with a woman forced to wear a death shroud burqa by her misogynistic husband which results in fragmentation of the community.

Isn’t that a destruction of community cohesion being unable to speak to a woman who lives locally or even know what she looks like?

Go on….

Again, the haters are ignoring our very low percentage of immigrants, are insisting on using absolute figures rather than percentages of employment, are ignoring my proposal for targeted funding, are ignoring the OBR’s point that immigrants are economically positive and the Tory’s exclusion of many skilled workers, hence hitting the economy…

None of this is new. It’s wilful blindness, where the xenophobia is all that matter. Immigrants, ‘stealing OUR JOBS. *Sigh*

Leon Wolfson – Third time you have misrepresented my position today in a typical Labour style smear attempt.

I suppose since you actually voted for Gordon Brown I shouldn’t be surprised.

Please tell me why stating a fact that of the 1.7 million jobs taken, 98% went to non UK Nationals is displaying any hatred whatsoever. From an open mouth into a closed mind I believe it’s called.

It is just stating a fact. The only person not stating facts and lying in a public forum is yourself as you continue to make comments about things I haven’t said.

My comment was that “hostility” (as you see it) is NOT the reason like minded people live together. And it’s not as you well know…

Of course your kind of bigotry and hatred, and the licence which it gives like-minded individuals with less personal restraint drives communities to live closely together, far more than would otherwise be the case.

I have experienced this, personally. I KNOW you’re a xenophobe who keeps on trying to put words I didn’t speak in my mouth in a typical far-right style.

You are, as usual, misusing a figure to justify yourself. The figure you quote comes from an incorrect headline and you are using a figure of the number jobs which have been added, overall, to the economy and claiming that these are the jobs “taken” (i.e. advertised and recruited).

Realistically, in 2007 the percentage jobs worked of foreign nationals was 7.4%. Because you’re conflating the figures for foreign-born British nationals into your figures, among other errors. This is very low, just as our percentage of immigrants is low. But that won’t stop the hate.

Anon,
You say:

I’m not trying to sound racist because I am far from that and whilst playing devils advocate here how about:
“Social cohesion is wrecked with mass migration to an area. Bradford riots for example.”

The study by Paul Bagguley and Yasmin Hussain from the Department of Sociology and Social Policy, University of Leeds, provides perhaps a more balanced assessment. Their analysis differs quite strongly with your assessment of mass migration caused wreckage of social cohesion.
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/sociology/people/pbdocs/Bradfordriot.doc

“…these ‘riots’ cannot be divorced from a context in which minority ethnic communities were alarmed by the mobilization of neo-fascists such as the British National Party (BNP) and the National Front (NF). The ‘riots’ of 1958 were also related to neo-fascist mobilisations (Fryer, 1984:378; Ramdin, 1987: 206-8). Ethnic minority communities in all the areas where violence erupted have had their lives marked by ongoing, mundane and persistent racism. It is important to note that the signs in some places were clear beforehand. The spread of unrest was linked to an increase in racial violence, the long-standing mistrust and disillusionment with the police, the overt and taunting presence of the BNP and other far-right groups and the entrenched poverty and unemployment which existed within the cities”

Now, let us look at your use of statistics, namely:

“Please tell me why stating a fact that of the 1.7 million jobs taken, 98% went to non UK Nationals is displaying any hatred whatsoever. From an open mouth into a closed mind I believe it’s called.

First of all, the basis for these assertions comes from the ONS Labour Force Survey. This survey is a snapshot of the British Labour force at any one time: it is not cumulative, but a survey of the size of British employment and its composition at one particular time, taken every three months.
Now the explanatory notes point out, this Survey “is a Survey of private households and excludes people in communal establishments (e.g. hostels, students living in halls of residence) and people who have lived in the UK for less than six months”

So, the immigrants considered are those whose residency in the UK is of long tern duration. Moreover, it includes all foreign-born workers. This definition could apply to the offspring of expats whose children were born abroad, who are now of working age and who have returned to these shores. It even applies to Boris Johnson (who was born in America).

Suffice to say that these numbers are static, not cumulative. However, their definition of employment differs widely from this scenario. There is no distinction made between a short term work assignment, (even of one or two weeks duration), and a career position, (even twenty years or more of service.) All the survey indicates is those who happened to be in work at the time the survey was conducted, no more. This process is repeated quarterly to provide the statistics. While the numbers of foreign born workers is roughly constant, the numbers of jobs is not, the turnover could be hundreds or thousands, we do not know, because the survey does not consider this factor. To draw the sweeping generalizations you have made is to misread the evidence provided. Full stop.

With regard to your question:

“As Labour’s Jack Straw effectively articulated it is not possible to have a conversation with a woman forced to wear a death shroud burqa by her misogynistic husband which results in fragmentation of the community”

If I meet a deaf mute, and I cannot sign, I cannot converse. This is not deterioration in social cohesion; it is merely an inability to communicate. If her choice to wear it is hers made freely, then it should be respected. If it has been forced upon her, and she wishes to make her free choice, then she should be supported by law to enjoy a freedom of choice that you and I would have.

Eds talking Balls, get a life.

Leon Wolfson – It is not possible to engage with someone who is clearly lying and smearing in public forums as you continue to be.

You have no idea of my circumstances – I remember the left claiming Boris Johnson was racist which considering he is married to an Indian is ludicrous and you are displaying the same smearing Derek McBride style tendencies.

Why do Labour activists and supporters believe it is OK to misrepresent other people’s positions and then falsely criticise them for things they have not said, done or advocate?

You are a dishonest individual Leon Wolfson and are well suited to involvement with the current incarnation of the Labour Party.

In time the party will realise the need to have a “New Labour” moment and at that point your type will be well and truly left in the past where you belong…

scandalousbill – Angels dancing on the head of a pin. Lies, damned lies and statistics.

1. Let me rephrase. Of the jobs surveyed and reported on 98% were taken by non UK born workers.
2. A riot is a riot by any other name – you are giving one persons reasons for the “riot” not answering the point I made.
3. How many “riots” have been carried out by expats?
4. Are you seriously suggesting any woman in a Western democracy would wear a death shroud burqa by choice without the constraints of male pressure?

That is bonkers and furthermore I would argue that an inability to communicate does affect community cohesion.

It would be possible to argue it’s hard to communicate with people who believe woman are not equal and husbands have the right to commit acts of violence against their wives but to be unable to speak to woman because of the wearing of death shroud burqas is simply not justifiable and I’m with Jack Straw and not you I’m afraid fella…

Are you now saying Jack Straw was wrong with his assertions in the past? Seems to me scandalousbill you’re just arguing for the sake of it as usual but at least I believe you believe what you post and opposite to Leon Wolfson who continues his New Labour smears at every opportunity….

Mouse – Ah yes, special pleading that YOUR form of xenophobia is acceptable. That YOUR brand of immigrant-bashing isn’t the same as all the others. That someone your personal circumstances make it acceptable for you to preach bigotry.

I’ve heard it all before.

1. This is still an outright lie. There remains a vast difference between jobs “taken” – those advertised and started by people, and the number of jobs added to the economy (given job turnover), and the figure is NOT 98% – that was a tabloid headline mis-print, contradicted within the article and ignores the fact it’s counting many British citizens.

2. Ignoring the evidence I see.
3. Google it, already. Yes, there have been.

4. YES! It’s done as a political statement, especially in France. Your utter lack of knowledge about the subject is typical – you’re lashing out blindly in hate, as is typical.

Oh, and for the readers, since Mouse won’t bother reading this like the other times – I’m not an avatar of the labour party. And I have no use for New Labour.