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Public Services for All > Published by Shamik Das, October 14th 2011 at 11:03 am

Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong

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On last night’s Question Time health secretary Andrew Lansley was told to his face by a GP exactly why no one trusts him on the NHS.

Fellow panelist Dr Phil Hammond confronted him about the obsession with competition in the health and social care bill – and the almost complete absence of a mention of transparency, opennness, accountability, cooperation, compassion, integration and collaboration. The word competion appears 86 times – about 86 more than the rest put together.

Here’s a transcript of the exchange:

Phil Hammond: “This all depends on trust, and the profession is deeply suspicious when a government comes in and says they’re not gonna perform a major top-down reorganisation of the health service and then lands 353 pages on you…

“It’s absolutely impossible to understand it… It is unreadable… This is unreadable, there’s no narrative, there’s no convincing story, you would think if you would read that you would hear words like transparency, opennness, accountability, they’re not in there. How many times do you think the word competition appears in your health and social care bill?

“The version I have, I know there’ve been 17 versions since, but this one, how many times do you think the word competition appears?”

Andrew Lansley: “I, I…”

PH: “86. How many times do you think the word cooperation appears?”

AL: “Oh, it appears…”

PH: “Nought. Integration?”

AL: “It appears, there is a duty in the…”

PH: “Collaboration?”

AL: “There is a duty in the legislation, there is a duty in the legislation for integration of services…”

PH: “There are 86 competitions, four cooperations, no integration, no collaboration…”

AL: “Integration is in the bill…”

PH: “It’s not in the one here.”

Watch it:

As you will see, later in the dialogue Hammond explains in detail why the obsession with competition is wrong:

“The thing that worries people most about it is this element of competition. What the NHS needs above all, it needs to rediscover its humanity, there are lots of areas where the NHS is very good, but if you look at Mid Staffs and cases like that there is a real problem.

“The problem with competition is that in every instance we’ve tried competition in the past – and Labour did this and introduced a market into the NHS – the competition came in and cherry picked the easy cases.

“In the NHS, 20 per cent of patients take up 80 per cent of the resources, and the patients who need it most, the cherries, with five or six diseases – I can see patients here I’d say ‘oh you’re fairly fit, I’ll cherry pick you’, there are patients here who I’d think ‘golly, you’ve got five or six diseases, you’re a bit expensive, I’m not so interested in you’, the only way to solve the problems of the NHS is to integrate it, to absolutely focus relentlessly, love and compassion and the best service on the most sick patients.

“Now if you introduce a market into that it’s very difficult to get that level of integration when you splinter it up with competition, and although Andrew will say there’s been a change in here that will it’s never happened yet, and simply NHS workers don’t trust competition to improve collaboration, what they want is collaboration and integration, keep as many patients out of hospital as you can.”

We will have more on the health reforms, and the battle to save the NHS, later today and this weekend on Left Foot Forward.

See also:

• Ten reasons peers should vote against Lansley’s anti-NHS bill – Shamik Das, October 12th 2011

• Can Lansley be trusted with the NHS? 400 more experts say NO – Shamik Das, October 4th 2011

• Cameron’s fantasy list of NHS reform backers – Shamik Das, September 7th 2011

• So who backs Lansley’s health reforms then? – Dominic Browne, June 1st 2011

• Under the microscope: Lansley’s private healthcare supporters – Tamasin Cave, January 19th 2011

  • http://twitter.com/samanthaj494/status/124788198915313664 Samantha Johnston

    VIDEO: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: http://t.co/DK3aWe3s reports @ShamikDas #SaveTheNHS

  • http://twitter.com/apertureimage/status/124788389957476352 Chris

    VIDEO: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: http://t.co/DK3aWe3s reports @ShamikDas #SaveTheNHS

  • http://twitter.com/petercollins8/status/124788434903629824 Peter Collins

    VIDEO: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: http://t.co/DK3aWe3s reports @ShamikDas #SaveTheNHS

  • http://twitter.com/alexsmithnp/status/124789209910349824 Alex Smith

    VIDEO: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: http://t.co/DK3aWe3s reports @ShamikDas #SaveTheNHS

  • http://twitter.com/dratnaike/status/124789956320313344 Dànaidh Ratnaike

    Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong http://t.co/yebEBPGp @leftfootfwd

  • http://twitter.com/latentexistence/status/124790359669751808 Latent Steve

    VIDEO: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: http://t.co/DK3aWe3s reports @ShamikDas #SaveTheNHS

  • http://twitter.com/jenclone/status/124790456948240384 Jen

    VIDEO: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: http://t.co/DK3aWe3s reports @ShamikDas #SaveTheNHS

  • http://twitter.com/latentexistence/status/124790576175513600 Latent Steve

    @bc_tmh RT @leftfootfwd VIDEO: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: http://t.co/iUU29XSs

  • http://twitter.com/wiganshale/status/124790635352956928 john shale

    VIDEO: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: http://t.co/DK3aWe3s reports @ShamikDas #SaveTheNHS

  • http://twitter.com/politicalplanet/status/124790644760780800 Political Planet

    Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: On last night's Question Time health secre… http://t.co/tvviMySo

  • http://twitter.com/drdukeofurl/status/124791302326976513 larryb

    Phil Hammond put Lansley on the spot re his health care reforms on Newsnight last night. http://t.co/TdQ3sm38; superb.

  • http://twitter.com/nemesisrepublic/status/124791329174716416 Nemesis Republic

    VIDEO: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: http://t.co/DK3aWe3s reports @ShamikDas #SaveTheNHS

  • http://twitter.com/carbonised/status/124791446560710656 Rebecca Devitt

    @bc_tmh RT @leftfootfwd VIDEO: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: http://t.co/iUU29XSs

  • Anon E Mouse

    And this is the best the leading left wing blog can offer in criticism of the government?

    If this is the level of opposition in this fine country then the Labour Party is doomed….

    The day after the lazy nurses were rumbled for mistreating the elderly in the NHS stinking wards and this is it? No anger about the waste of Labour’s investment? Just this?

    What is wrong with you people? Go and proper jobs or get someone in to moderate this fine blog. It is no wonder Labour are tanking in the polls….

  • Shamik Das

    We don’t take advice from the BNP thank you. Take your hatred and bile elsewhere.

  • Selohesra

    Its a bit lazy to tar everyone who disagrees with you with the epithet BNP – unless I’ve missed something there is nothing racist (the most defining BNP trait) in the mouse’s comment.

  • Shamik Das

    If you have time, search back through everything he’s written – the Islamophobia, xenophobia, homophobia, defending the far right, defending racist cartoons – it’s all there…

  • Skyecloud

    Anon E Mouse I have to take exception to your comment regarding “lazy nurses”. Have you worked in an NHS hospital? Or, have you just read about it in the Daily Fail? The problem is a lack of staff on the “shop floor” exacerbated by the inhumane cuts imposed by the current regime of which you are obviously a supporter. I believe that contracted private companies deliver the ward cleaning services, of which we shall be enduring more in additional areas of the NHS, thanks to the un-mandated “reforms” of the NHS, perpetrated by the present regime.

  • http://twitter.com/enystregarthen/status/124861218237329408 Karen D Tregaskin

    Let this b the 1 article u read & RT @leftfootfwd: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong http://t.co/Oi3CrGIV

  • http://twitter.com/ladylittleton/status/124863327435362304 LadyLittleton

    Let this b the 1 article u read & RT @leftfootfwd: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong http://t.co/Oi3CrGIV

  • http://twitter.com/keirascarlett/status/124863638069719040 Keira Evans-Determan

    Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong (Left Foot Forward): On last night's Questi… http://t.co/wzVZ0amT

  • http://chill4us.com/news/phil-hammond-hammers-the-health-secretary-on-question-time Phil Hammond hammers the Health Secretary on Question Time | Carers Chill4us

    [...] Hat-tip: Left Foot Forward [...]

  • http://www.leftfootforward.org/2011/10/tory-nhs-policy-makes-waiting-times-48-per-cent-worse/ First Tory policy on the NHS makes waiting times 48% worse | Left Foot Forward

    [...] saw last night that Dr Phil Hammond has professional concerns about the NHS in the government’s hands, we saw in the Lords that [...]

  • http://twitter.com/maggytwter/status/124896167950688256 fredrick alvarado

    Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: On last night's Question Time health secre… http://t.co/MbQqS2sh

  • http://twitter.com/fairtrial/status/124896564148842497 No Jury No Justice

    Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: On last night's Question Time health secre… http://t.co/MbQqS2sh

  • http://twitter.com/snmc9/status/124897091590955008 smc

    RT @leftfootfwd: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong http://t.co/CQuk8hiD

  • http://twitter.com/ebonydawnmarsh/status/124904230690623490 Ebony Dawn Marsh

    Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: On last night's Question Time health secre… http://t.co/MbQqS2sh

  • http://twitter.com/riversidesites/status/124909441022832640 John Fitzgerald

    RT @leftfootfwd: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong http://t.co/jeBtcCe6

  • http://www.leftfootforward.org/2011/10/look-left-14-10-11/ Look Left – Cameron bids Fox ‘thank you and goodbye’ | Left Foot Forward

    [...] Question Time last night, the health secretary was told to his face by a GP exactly what was wrong with the bill – especially the bill’s obsession [...]

  • http://twitter.com/shamikdas/status/124929951181967360 Shamik Das

    VIDEO: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong: http://t.co/DK3aWe3s reports @ShamikDas #SaveTheNHS

  • Dave Citizen

    Please let’s not get distracted – the government are trying to wreck our NHS so their mates in the City can expand their portfolios.

    Shamik – you are quite right to draw attention to this debate which I found most informative. On the one side was a slick political operator with a laywer’s grasp of the key arguements and debating techniques to deploy. On the other was a guy with real experience of the NHS and a passionate concern for its continuation.

    I have no doubts what so ever who I would trust and who I’d watch my back with.

  • http://twitter.com/hilarymarmot/status/124950070524256256 Hilary Marmot

    Watch Dr Phil Hammond on why NHS reforms are totally wrong @leftfootfwd http://t.co/9Y6tiMHt h/t @latentexistence #savethenhs

  • http://twitter.com/maximmanchester/status/125131449383919616 Max

    RT @leftfootfwd: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong http://t.co/LmKUES48

  • http://www.leftfootforward.org/2011/10/house-of-lords-debate-health-and-social-care-bill/ Losing the plot: How the Lords rubbished the NHS bill – then voted for it anyway | Left Foot Forward

    [...] also: • Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong – Shamik Das, October 14th [...]

  • http://twitter.com/failingtofollow/status/125135624561897472 Peter Birkinshaw

    Ok, if you only click one NHS link I throw at you this is the one. Via @danielelton: http://t.co/gbd4fC4E #bbcqt

  • http://twitter.com/pennyl50/status/125185348442669056 Penny Louch

    RT@leftfootfwd: Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong http://t.co/PU5SRirU> worth watching again and again…

  • http://www.leftfootforward.org/2011/10/has-lansley-misled-the-house-over-links-to-private-health/ Has Lansley misled the House over links to private health? | Left Foot Forward

    [...] also: • Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong – Shamik Das, October 14th [...]

  • http://twitter.com/relationshibbix/status/126998676211118080 Miles Heckler

    Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong – Left Foot Forward http://t.co/oTtjJbrQ

  • http://twitter.com/relationshibbix/status/127398776678793219 Miles Heckler

    http://t.co/oTtjJbrQ Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong – Left Foot Forward

  • Gary Brooke

    There is no passion for these NHS reforms, except from those who would benefit financially from them; many of these people are (what a surprise) MPs, members of the House of Lords or donors to the Tory party.
    In addition to this insidious privatisation of this most precious of NATIONAL ASSETS we must face the creeping ‘corporatisation’ of what passes for democracy in Britain.
    Financial policy and the scale of cuts is determined by the reactions of the markets and the City. The extent of bank ‘regulation’ has been defined by the banks themselves. Private finance is buying into state education, as it has also bought into the care sector. The government gets its advice on alcohol abuse and obesity from the brewers and fast-food companies.
    Lansley seeks to distance himself from his responsibilities, preferring instead to leave all that stuff to an unelected part-time quango chief, because (unlike policing or the armed forces) the government does not have a sovereign duty to provide health care – so, all right to leave it to our sponsors in the private sector, then.
    Britain is made up of layers of privilege, inequality and unaccountability and it’s not just about Charles Windsor’s vetoes or lobbyists buying political clout for their clients for the cost of a slap-up feed. Corporatisation of the nation involves the redistribution of the nation’s assets (like the NHS) into the grasping hands of unelected big-business asset-strippers. It also hands to them what’s left of democracy in this country. And kills it off.

  • http://www.leftfootforward.org/2011/11/the-house-of-lords-ties-itself-in-noble-knots-over-the-nhs-bill/ The House of Lords ties itself in noble knots over the NHS bill | Left Foot Forward

    [...] Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong – Shamik Das, October 14th [...]

  • http://twitter.com/doktordunc/status/162146673332723713 Duncan Hall

    Here's a gr8 vid showing what doctors actually think about Cameron's anti-NHS reforms: http://t.co/HUVp07N0 #PMQs

  • http://twitter.com/pmphillips/status/162146698511134720 Pete Phillips

    Here's a gr8 vid showing what doctors actually think about Cameron's anti-NHS reforms: http://t.co/HUVp07N0 #PMQs

  • http://twitter.com/ninakillen/status/162146715544207360 Nina Killen

    Here's a gr8 vid showing what doctors actually think about Cameron's anti-NHS reforms: http://t.co/HUVp07N0 #PMQs

  • http://twitter.com/simonjrogers/status/162147366357573632 Simon Rogers

    Dr Phil Hammond on proposed NHS reforms http://t.co/ZGgidIXz

  • http://twitter.com/jphimister/status/162149892255514624 Joseph Burnett

    Here's a gr8 vid showing what doctors actually think about Cameron's anti-NHS reforms: http://t.co/HUVp07N0 #PMQs

  • http://twitter.com/seusssl/status/162151216909000704 seuss

    Here's a gr8 vid showing what doctors actually think about Cameron's anti-NHS reforms: http://t.co/HUVp07N0 #PMQs

  • http://twitter.com/sparklytom/status/162151261280538624 Tom Milburn

    Here's a gr8 vid showing what doctors actually think about Cameron's anti-NHS reforms: http://t.co/HUVp07N0 #PMQs

  • http://twitter.com/rdriscollpol/status/162152174091116544 R Driscoll Politics

    Here's a gr8 vid showing what doctors actually think about Cameron's anti-NHS reforms: http://t.co/HUVp07N0 #PMQs

  • http://twitter.com/rasmusviking/status/162154438226747393 Erik Nolander

    Dr Phil Hammond on proposed NHS reforms http://t.co/ZGgidIXz

  • http://twitter.com/samanthaj494/status/162165664646311937 Samantha Johnston

    Here's a gr8 vid showing what doctors actually think about Cameron's anti-NHS reforms: http://t.co/HUVp07N0 #PMQs

  • http://twitter.com/mattfinished/status/162184206758326274 MattFinnegan

    RT @leftfootfwd: Here's a gr8 vid showing what doctors actually think about Cameron's anti-NHS reforms: http://t.co/pRwsiVbQ #PMQs

  • http://twitter.com/macinpoole/status/162216414520942592 malcolm

    Here's a gr8 vid showing what doctors actually think about Cameron's anti-NHS reforms: http://t.co/HUVp07N0 #PMQs

  • http://twitter.com/dianehain/status/162254421974188033 Diane Hain

    RT @leftfootfwd: http://t.co/5CQ9xzfK An Old QuestionTime, but well worth seeing AndrewLansley up against Dr Phil Hammond on #NHSBill

  • http://twitter.com/scoscarwood/status/162254790208921602 Celia Kelly

    RT @leftfootfwd: http://t.co/5CQ9xzfK An Old QuestionTime, but well worth seeing AndrewLansley up against Dr Phil Hammond on #NHSBill

  • http://twitter.com/mikesmart13/status/162691095069863936 Mike Smart

    Here's a gr8 vid showing what doctors actually think about Cameron's anti-NHS reforms: http://t.co/HUVp07N0 #PMQs

  • http://twitter.com/britishroses1/status/163295368912711681 BevR

    Here's a gr8 vid showing what doctors actually think about Cameron's anti-NHS reforms: http://t.co/HUVp07N0 #PMQs

  • http://www.leftfootforward.org/2012/02/gp-in-david-camerons-constituency-nobody-supports-the-nhs-changes/ GP in Cameron’s constituency: “Nobody supports the NHS changes” | Left Foot Forward

    [...] Lansley told to his face why his NHS reforms are wrong, wrong, wrong – Shamik Das, October 14th [...]