Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector

RT @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/d67rDdvU #N30

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/zAbj2geQ #N30

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector – http://t.co/BXc7vfrM

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector – http://t.co/BXc7vfrM

RT @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/r4gzIaQ4 #N30

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector – http://t.co/BXc7vfrM

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector http://t.co/jyvkMjlE – here are the facts!

RT @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/r4gzIaQ4 #N30

The issue is not that changing public sector pensions somehow affects private sector pensions. It’s that private sector workers, including those on modest incomes, have to pay for their neighbours’ public sector pensions while not looking forward to such a good pension themselves.

Interesting piece on public vs private sector pensions http://t.co/DbR8n8pv

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/zAbj2geQ #N30

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/zAbj2geQ #N30

@the_dbh #N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions not > private sec. pensions, just fewer of them: http://t.co/MbWLgGL9

@gemmatumelty #N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions not > private sec. pensions, just fewer of them: http://t.co/MbWLgGL9

@gemmatumelty #N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pnsns no more generous than private sec. ps, just more of them: http://t.co/MbWLgGL9

@punite #N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pnsns no more generous than private sec. ps, just more of them: http://t.co/MbWLgGL9

@unisonroger #N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pnsns no more generous than private sec. ps, just more of them: http://t.co/MbWLgGL9

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/zAbj2geQ #N30

@unitetheunion #N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pnsns no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them: http://t.co/MbWLgGL9

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/zAbj2geQ #N30

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

Yet cutting a nurse’s pension will do nothing to boost the pension of a shop-worker,

==========

Yes it will. It means they have kept the money. The choice is now, do you force them to save, or is it voluntary?

RT @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector http://t.co/Kn4wjh4n

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/zAbj2geQ #N30

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

"@leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/8pE3FDBD #N30". Interesting

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/XYrEjfmw

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector: Nigel Stanley lays out the details on the differ… http://t.co/CkCNweXJ

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

@gemmatumelty #N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pnsns no more generous than private sec. ps, just more of them: http://t.co/MbWLgGL9

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/zAbj2geQ #N30

@gemmatumelty #N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pnsns no more generous than private sec. ps, just more of them: http://t.co/MbWLgGL9

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/zAbj2geQ #N30

top directors in the private sector (FTSE 100 directors) have pensions worth nearly £4 million on average.

==========

About the same as top people in the public sector. 30 times income = fund size.

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Two in three public sector staff earning between £100 and £200 a week are in a pension while only one in seven private sector employees in the same wage band are in a pension;
==========

And those same people are taxed (Min wage – 2.5K a year), to pay for the rich in the public sector. How fair is that?

What about Gordon Brown’s little tax raid on pension funds. Well over 100 bn taken from the private pensions to pay for the public sector pensions. Why weren’t you complaining about this? Nope, you were cheering it on.

==========
Private sector workers should be angry not at public sector workers but at their employers and successive governments who have allowed private sector pension coverage to decline so sharply.
==========

Partly right. It was Gordon Brown and Labour who are mainly responsible. The decline happened under Labour’s watch.

Now, why should the private sector pay all the money, and the minority in the public sector get all the gain?

What’s fair about that?

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

Making public sector pensions as unfair as those in the private sector does nothing to increase fairness http://t.co/8UTHEuVP #N30

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/zAbj2geQ #N30

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

RT @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector http://t.co/IAzxn95H

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

Making public sector pensions as unfair as those in the private sector does nothing to increase fairness http://t.co/uGBS0wyX

Making public sector pensions as unfair as those in the private sector does nothing to increase fairness http://t.co/uGBS0wyX

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

@gemmatumelty #N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pnsns no more generous than private sec. ps, just more of them: http://t.co/MbWLgGL9

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/zAbj2geQ #N30

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/zAbj2geQ #N30

Interesting piece on public vs private sector pensions http://t.co/DbR8n8pv

RT @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector http://t.co/KQXmCEje #otmp #occupylondon

RT @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector http://t.co/KQXmCEje #otmp #occupylondon

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector | Left Foot Forward. #N30 via @leftfootfwd http://t.co/uOLhhY8I

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector | Left Foot Forward. #N30 via @leftfootfwd http://t.co/uOLhhY8I

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector | Left Foot Forward. #N30 via @leftfootfwd http://t.co/uOLhhY8I

Words of wisdom on pensions from @NigelStanley at @leftfootfwd http://t.co/GWJVKqzV #N30

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector | Left Foot Forward. #N30 via @leftfootfwd http://t.co/uOLhhY8I

Mistake to think private pensions set the standard of 'fairness' for public – it's the other way around http://t.co/v36Qo99i #nov30

Words of wisdom on pensions from @NigelStanley at @leftfootfwd http://t.co/GWJVKqzV #N30

Mistake to think private pensions set the standard of 'fairness' for public – it's the other way around http://t.co/v36Qo99i #nov30

Words of wisdom on pensions from @NigelStanley at @leftfootfwd http://t.co/GWJVKqzV #N30

Words of wisdom on pensions from @NigelStanley at @leftfootfwd http://t.co/GWJVKqzV #N30

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector | Left Foot Forward. #N30 via @leftfootfwd http://t.co/uOLhhY8I

RT @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/a5JZtDxA #N30

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector | Left Foot Forward. #N30 via @leftfootfwd http://t.co/uOLhhY8I

RT @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector http://t.co/pUFbjg44

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector | Left Foot Forward. #N30 via @leftfootfwd http://t.co/uOLhhY8I

A few points in reply:

1) low paid private sector workers pay far more towards the cost of subsidising private sector pensions for the high paid through tax relief. Two-thirds of the £30 billion a year spent on tax relief goes to higher rate tax payers.

2) thoughtful people on the right have a much more rounded view of why private sector pensions have been in decline. The rot started long before Gordon Brown. I don’t expect Lord Blagger to take much notice of me (and I admit it’s probably mutual), but he should look at this publication from Civitas – who I am sure would be happy to be described as a right-wing think-tank.

http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/prOnYourOwn.htm . To quote from the press release:

“Morris and Palmer argue that it is because previous governments, especially under Margaret Thatcher, quit the field and abandoned consumers to their more agile predators ….

“This failure to protect consumers was due to a dogmatic reliance of successive governments on free market principles to help pension savers get a good deal. This has involved encouraging individuals, rather than companies, to take responsibility for their own retirement savings:”

As they say free markets are fine for vegetables, but rubbish for pensions.

3) The government’s claim to be on the side of private sector workers’ pensions has taken a bit of a knock today as they are pushing auto-enrolment in smaller and medium sized companies back beyond the next election, severely straining the consensus, painfully build around the Pensions Commission Report. Perhaps Lord Blagger will join me in condemning this …

low paid private sector workers pay far more towards the cost of subsidising private sector pensions for the high paid through tax relief. Two-thirds of the £30 billion a year spent on tax relief goes to higher rate tax payers.
=============
It’s tax deferral. Those ‘rich’ as you put it, then pay lots of taxes to fund public sector pension, both when they are working, and when they are much poorer in their retirement.

Nothing like a bit of revisionism by omitting the taxation in retirement part. It’s tax deferral.

I’ve no doubt that it started before. However, Labour accelerated the change by taking money from pensions funds with its tax increases. [No tax 'relief']

End result, it all went tits up.

Look at the other villian. Labour supported and big time donor, Maxwell.

“This failure to protect consumers was due to a dogmatic reliance of successive governments on free market principles

I agree.

1. High fees – should have been legistalated against
2. High costs of moving funds
3. Fees up front.

What does it take to operate such a system? A government. It’s rent-seeking.

Auto-enrolement is part of the solution. However given that the points 1 to 3 above aren’t included, you would be mad to sign up unless there was additional cash. There is also one other condition that is needed. A clause in the bill that says any changes to taxation of the fund has to be confirmed by a referenda.

Otherwise a future Labour government would carry on doing what Brown did. When desperate for cash to pay civil service pensions, look around for the money. Ah its in pensions. Lets have a little wealth tax. Look at Hungary, Argentina for countries have have stolen everyone’s private pensions to pay for state debts. Look at Ireland forcing people to invest pension money in AIG.

The government’s claim to be on the side of private sector workers’ pensions has taken a bit of a knock today as they are pushing auto-enrolment in smaller and medium sized companies back beyond the next election, severely straining the consensus, painfully build around the Pensions Commission Report. Perhaps Lord Blagger will join me in condemning this …

==============

Let me put a bit more flesh on the bones.

1. I’m in favour of compulsorary pensions savings
2. I’m against Ponzi pensions – the state. If the PS workers were a little brighter, they might work out that for them this is safer.

3. However, that money has to be safe from governments. So it needs a referenda lock in. No government can touch it without the agreement of the people who have the investment. Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas.

4. When in retirement, you go into draw down. If the money runs out, then everyone helps. But only when it happens. ie. Help is delayed to the last moment. I suggest that you can take out the state pension less any accrued state pension.

If you die early, the money goes to your heir pension funds. Wife, then children. If no heirs to the fund that pays for those who have run out.

5. Lots of money for investment, that is good for those out of work, plus companies looking for funding.

6. Restrictions on fees

7. Bans on investment decisions from government. No bailouts for banks (AIG) or British Leyland.

8. If the unions want, they can run funds. Hell they could even force their members to bail out BL if they wanted.

9. NI is diverted to the fund

Now, the guarantee is effectively worthless. A median worker (26K) who put their NI into the FTSE over the last 40 years would have a joint life RPI linked annuity of 21K a year. Instead they get 5K, CPI (worse) and not fully joint life. So the FTSE would have to perform disastrously for people to not make 5K. To be worse off, you would need to be on less than 10K pa for 40 years.

So let me ask you.

What percentage salary increase would it take to buy PS workers out of their future pensions? (not accrued).

10, 20, 30, 40, 50%?

Easiest solution would be to have all employees in PLC’s to have the same pension rights terms and conditions as the CEO and the goverment to bring back the tax relieft on private sector pensions with the conditions it can only be invested in British jobs and industry so encouraging employment and brining up private sector pensions to a better condition.

Untill we stop fighting each other we are going to be shafted by whoever is in power both those on the right and those to claim to support the left.

A new left wing party should be established holding the above as a key moral principle with the goal of moral economics, higher employment and serving the majority, although some choices will be unpopular and they may not get much financial support, long term they could be very succesful

For sure retired people pay tax on their pension. But the costs of tax relief are much higher £30b than the income from tax on pensions <£10 billion. This is partly because most people who receive tax relief as higher rate tax-payers go on to pay tax as standard rate tax-payers in retirement.

Government supporters such as CentreForum argue for the Lib Dem manifesto commitment to limit tax relief to the standard rate.

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector | Left Foot Forward. #N30 via @leftfootfwd http://t.co/uOLhhY8I

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

And you still want the public sector pensioners to get all the tax money, but the public to get no services for that money?

When even the unions are admitting to the pensions being worth another 40% on top of salary…

So lets take an extreme example.

First tax relief is on the marginal rate of taxation. For some that means 50%. Then lets say they have saved a lot, then then get taxed again at 50%. Effective tax rate, 75%.

That applies all the down the list to poor people too. If you take away tax referral, its just means increasing the tax rate above the going rate for pensioners, poor or otherwise.

Except I doubt you will admit to that.

RT @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector http://t.co/wnJ8MXRP

But most people who have a marginal rate of tax at the higher rate when they are working pay a standard rate of tax on their post-retirement income.

I’m not in favour of scrapping tax relief on pensions. Personally I’d skew it towards the low paid but cap it for the high paid, but the real politik at the moment is for limiting it to standard rate for all

The current system means that it costs a higher rate tax payer 60p to save a pensions pound and a standard rate taxpayer 80p. The vast majority of them will pay 20p income tax in retirement.

I am sorry when I say this but what do you mean, the above policy would help improve private sector pensions.

But are you advocating that only CEO’s in the private sector should have good pensions and everyone else should have a really bad pension?

No. The basic rate tax payer will still get a pound in the fund for every one they put it.

They then pay the going rate of taxation when retired. [Probably higher because someone is going to be forced to fund the public sector fat cats]

For someone on, say 45K, they are going to pay a pound to get 80p in the fund. They sill get taxed in retirement. There effective tax rate (don’t forget, they are in the basic rate level in retirement) will be 36%.

Nice one. Lets increase the taxation on pensioners, so they foot the bill for the public sector. No wonder MPs and the PS like it, they are exempt. They don’t have a fund, so can’t be taxed on it.

Is this not a terrible argument in favour of the strikes? Argument is basically that private sector pensions are bad. http://t.co/pcWg9bFZ

Here is one example of Public sector pensions.

http://www.nipsa.org.uk/Docs/Conference/2011/Financial-Statements-(1)

Link for those that want to look it up themselves.

The most recent valuation was at 31st
December 2009. The actuary assessed a shortfall in the
Pension Scheme funding against liabilities of some £1.910m. NIPSA accepted the actuary’s
recommendation that the employer contribution rate should be 39.3% plus an employer contribution
of £210,000 per annum to recover the funding shortfall. These revised contributions will be
implemented during 2011 and will be reflected in the annual financial statements.

Not bad is it? Nearly 40% contributions by the public, on top of your salary, what could possibly be wrong.

Fat cats. Nothing to do with being Fair. Just taking other people’s money, and not providing services in return.

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector, writes @NigelStanley: http://t.co/zAbj2geQ #N30

RT @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector http://t.co/wnJ8MXRP

@Steve__Porter I can understand why you're feeling that way. Some explainers: http://t.co/pb799f3X http://t.co/X1IHlUzi #solidarity #n30

@ToryChairman try reading the attached http://t.co/4AVt7rrR

@LouiseMensch to match public and private sector pensions 2 in 3 of the public sector have to stop having any pension http://t.co/4AVt7rrR

NIPSA isn’t a public body, it’s an union. If you bothered to read the document you linked to, you’d see that it was overwhelmingly funded by its membership fees.

The pension fund you mention for the union’s own staff, not for it’s members.

Burn it all! Race to the bottom! Slash tandardards of living! Crush worker morale!
Keep up the good work, LordBlagger, avatar of the 1%. CRUSH PENSIONS FOR THE 99%!!!!

…

Yea, and you too.

40% contributions to provide their pensions.

It’s similar levels for the state employee pensions, in order to gold plate them.

But its all off the books, thanks to that kind accountant who unfortunately lost his job working for Bernie Maddoff.

#N30 MYTHBUSTER on @leftfootfwd: Pub sec pensions no more generous thn private sec. ps, just more of them4lower paid: http://t.co/7RoVldDv

The Government’s aim is not to encourage a race to the bottom – it is to reduce the level of taxpayer subsidy in public sector schemes. I agree that the private sector provision is too poor, but Gordon Brown’s removal of the ability to claim tax credits on UK share dividends didn’t help, nor his wholly inappropriate regulation of retail financial services instead of concentrating on investment banking where the risk really is.

Successive Governments have also abjectly failed to provide a private pension system which actually encourages the poorest to save for retirement. The reason that pensions are high in the top echelons of the private sector is because the system is designed for use as a tax avoidance tool for the super-rich, rather than as a retirement planning tool for the poor. And Labour share as much blame as the Conservatives for that.

#n30 #mythbusting: Public sector pensions are no more gold-plated than private sector ones (when they're offered):
http://t.co/RJVk7I4w

#n30 #mythbusting: Public sector pensions are no more gold-plated than private sector ones (when they're offered):
http://t.co/RJVk7I4w

#n30 #mythbusting: Public sector pensions are no more gold-plated than private sector ones (when they're offered):
http://t.co/RJVk7I4w

#n30 #mythbusting: Public sector pensions are no more gold-plated than private sector ones (when they're offered):
http://t.co/RJVk7I4w

The name couldn’t be more appropriate for an eejit who didn’t understand what he was reading. He defintely belongs in the 96% which poll today reveals know nothing about public sector pensions. Run along back to your Beano.

#n30 #mythbusting: Public sector pensions are no more gold-plated than private sector ones (when they're offered):
http://t.co/RJVk7I4w

#n30 #mythbusting: Public sector pensions are no more gold-plated than private sector ones (when they're offered):
http://t.co/RJVk7I4w

#n30 #mythbusting: Public sector pensions are no more gold-plated than private sector ones (when they're offered):
http://t.co/RJVk7I4w

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector http://t.co/Zw08uMH9 #pmqs Mumsnet #c4news #Cameron #newsnight RT

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector http://t.co/Zw08uMH9 #pmqs Mumsnet #c4news #Cameron #newsnight RT

RT @leftfootfwd: Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector http://t.co/MicenvTh

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector | Left Foot Forward http://t.co/veKGLUHw #N30

Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than private sector | Left Foot Forward http://t.co/veKGLUHw #N30

#bestoftheweek #2:
Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector
http://t.co/zAbj2geQ

#bestoftheweek #2:
Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector
http://t.co/zAbj2geQ

#bestoftheweek #2:
Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector
http://t.co/zAbj2geQ

#bestoftheweek #2:
Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector
http://t.co/zAbj2geQ

#bestoftheweek #2:
Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector
http://t.co/zAbj2geQ

#bestoftheweek #2:
Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector
http://t.co/zAbj2geQ

#bestoftheweek #2:
Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector
http://t.co/zAbj2geQ

RT @leftfootfwd
Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector
http://t.co/NKGcSeUS

#bestoftheweek #2:
Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector
http://t.co/zAbj2geQ

#bestoftheweek #2:
Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector
http://t.co/zAbj2geQ

#bestoftheweek #2:
Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector
http://t.co/zAbj2geQ

#bestoftheweek #2:
Public sector pensions no more gold-plated than those in private sector
http://t.co/zAbj2geQ